Think Like an Owner | Tony Guerra, PharmD

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: You're listening to the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Keer.

Well, hello, Tony. Thanks for joining us. 

[00:00:29] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Hey, excited to, uh, be on and, uh, talk on your podcast. Talk to your listeners about some things that have to do with pharmacy. 

[00:00:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: Great Tony. Um, most people, unless they have their head in the sand are gonna know Tony is, but for those, for the, the one or two that don't give us a little bit of a background, catch us up to speed of, of who you are.

[00:00:53] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Um, I'm a pharmacist who has been, uh, doing this for 22 years. Uh, and, uh, I spent eight years in retail and then. uh, ended up meeting my wife. We sort of did residency. I didn't finish, but ended up, uh, teaching, uh, chemistry in a community college. And I've been doing that for the last 11 years, but I've kept very active on social media.

Um, I have a degree now in human computer interaction, which is a fancy way of saying computers and cognitive psychology and, and some design principles and things like that. But, uh, got into podcasting maybe three or four years ago. Had a YouTube channel that, uh, caught some, uh, I guess momentum. And I've just kind of been talking and, and kind of keeping people informed on some things that, uh, maybe they don't hear about.

And, uh, just trying to help people through, uh, books and videos. And, uh, I got three, eight year old girls, so sometimes it's my time away and I know you got a bunch of kids, so, uh, yeah, but that's me, uh, just trying to. Trying to be a good dad, trying to be a good pharmacist and trying to help some people.

[00:02:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, well, the reason I have you on Tony is I'm, I've come across you years ago with all of your stuff. And, um, you're, you're really hitting the whole gamut. One question I have now, when you, when you say you're at the, um, the, the college, tell me again, that's a community college. 

[00:02:19] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. So in, uh, Anke, Iowa, which is, uh, the Northern suburb, one of the Northern suburbs of Des Moines, uh, I've been here for 11 years.

I actually started out helping out with a pharmacy technician program, uh, as the chair, and then I would teach some bio classes and then. Organic chemistry is actually how I first got here. And now I teach chemistry and pharmacology full time. Uh, the chemistry, usually to people that are gonna enter, uh, health professions, whether medical assisting or nursing, we have 19 different health programs here in the building.

And then, uh, I also teach pharmacology online, uh, which a lot of people need if they maybe they had a bad semester and they need to take it online to make it up. Uh, so those are the kind of two things I do for my, my nine to five, if you wanna call it that. Okay. Cause I was 

[00:03:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: gonna ask that because when I looked at your, your, your LinkedIn, um, mm-hmm, , it talks about the community college.

And I thought, well, what pharmacology does he teach outside of? You know, a pharmacy school now, are you, are you ever teaching that to people? That is already in the pharmacy or is that always gonna be too. Technicians or people or nurses needing to get 

[00:03:30] Tony Guerra, PharmD: somewhere? Yeah, I don't teach. I mean, I take P P E students, but I don't do anything with the colleges in terms of, uh, teaching.

So mine is, uh, freshman, sophomore level pharmacology for. Allied health professions. So anything that's allied with the physician or, you know, with the pharmacist, but I, I don't teach graduate level courses. We're only allowed to teach freshman sophomores here. So, uh that's I gotcha. That's the extent of what I do.

Yeah, 

[00:03:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: I gotcha. What, um, I, I, I had thought about teaching in my past and usually like, if I'm at the pharmacy and I get, um, maybe not an intern, but you know, a new employee and I gotta teach something more than about. Two or three times in a row. I get sick of hearing myself talk. I know my family, I talk but I get sick of that myself.

How do you, um, how, how do you, how do you prevent that? You know, from, I mean, cuz obviously someone's gonna say to a pharmacist. You do the same thing over and over, and we know that's not true, you know, but you do the same exact thing, but how do you do that in teaching? How do you manage that to say, well, no, I here's why I don't get sick of why I don't get sick of Tony.

[00:04:41] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Well, I do teach the same class over and over, which is funny that you asked that. So I'll, I'll talk about. You know, having repetitive things in your life and, and making, uh, it not so repetitive. So pharmacology does change a little bit, but chemistry in general, doesn't even if they did add to the periodic table, it wouldn't change the elements of the periodic table that I'm teaching.

So. What I do is, uh, to kind of keep the other side of my brain going is that's where all the books come in in kind of solving things. So the memorizing pharmacology book came from being in pharmacology class and, and seeing that I was teaching over their heads. And they're just like, I just don't, if you could just keep the names in my head, cuz it was like a different language to them.

Yeah. So I. Work to solve the top 200 problems. So how do you remember the top 200 so that you can understand what I'm saying with, uh, rest of the material and, and every single book I've written is trying to solve a single problem. Uh, the jobs, uh, issue maybe with the pharmacy schools and not to go too deep down that rabbit hole, but that I just met a lot of people that have jobs that aren't.

The menu, I guess, if you wanna put it that way. And, and I found a lot of them at a PHA meeting, so I was like, that's really cool. Let's, uh, talk about those. And, and so that's, if anybody wants to get out there in writing and teaching or kind of break up the repetition, uh, just find something that's driving people crazy and solve the problem and write a book about it.

[00:06:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, solve that, solve that whole, solve that whole. Did you, um, did, have you, have you thought of a song yet? Do you sing like that little guy that does all the states and all the presidents and things like that? I did. I did 

[00:06:24] Tony Guerra, PharmD: a couple of things, actually. It's it's you did ask, I, I have a song in the memorizing pharmacology book, which, uh, I have the, the narrator James Gillies.

He's actually Scottish, but he was on the BBC for a while and he does a good job singing it. And, uh, there's a rap that the guy from the Harry Potter actor, Daniel Radcliff does, uh, and it's the ABC or alphabet something or other, uh, by Blackalicious and it's a really hard rap to do. And it's so impressive watching Harry Potter now, Daniel Radcliffe, you know, doing this rap.

So it's. I wonder how fast I could do, you know, 200 drugs and right. It's about two minutes and 30 seconds. So I think it, I think it went viral. It's got 300 views, but that's what I did, I did give it a shot. 

[00:07:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: We'll we'll we'll we'll do that next. Uh, next time we talk okay. Um, one, one goal I've always had was to, because my history is kind of an independent pharmacy and we, we serve a little population in, in our little city and so on.

It was always fascinating to me and still is fascinating to break out to the world via the internet and actually, um, you know, sell, sell a product to the internet versus versus our two mile radius. What, what was it like? And I know that from a. Uh, benevolent standpoint, you know, you made the books and it helps the people.

And so on. Take me through the path, if you would, of how you actually got your first. Sale on the internet. And what was that like? And is, is that, is that a pain in the, in the rear or is that cool or, or tell me about that. 

[00:08:08] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah, it, it actually, it's a good, quick story because it's a good lesson. Uh, so I, I actually wrote the book and published it on lulu.com as a print book and.

Then I would literally take these cases of books to the bookstore, cuz I put it in my classes and, and uh, you know, it's like, well how much money do you make off the students? And I think I make a dollar 12 so you're not, you're not the 90 

[00:08:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: textbook yet. 

[00:08:38] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah. So there's a, you know, whatever the class is.

It's like, you know, if it's four credits, it's $600 at a community college, you know, I'm making a dollar. From that. So, uh, that was one thing is, you know, getting and talking to the bookstore person kind of understanding that process. But then Lulu also sells to the world and I was kind of disappointed that the world didn't buy anything.

And I was like, why aren't they buying any books? You know? Right. And so I put it on this new website called amazon.com. I hadn't oh, that little one. yeah. and I didn't, I didn't know that. How big a deal. It was. So I was like, all right, well, here's the ebook version. And I actually had it converted to mobi, which is a type of software, but I won't get into that.

You, I just do word files now and you just upload the word file. And then, so then I had the ebook up there and I was like, man, it is just gonna crush it. And Nope, nothing. Then I did something. I'm not sure why I did it, I guess just one day I was like, God, I listened to a lot of audio books. I wonder if you know, people would listen to it.

Yep. 

[00:09:47] Mike Koelzer, Host: We just had a technical glitch. And so, um, I'll go, if not, we'll just leave a little break for the, uh, audience, but start back up again. If you would about, um, you went to the ebook. On Amazon and you, how did that happen? 

[00:10:04] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Sure. So I went to upload it on Amazon and then I thought, you know, well, I'll definitely get sales because it's $9 and 99 cents on Amazon as an ebook and $20 as a book in, in the classroom.

And, and really, maybe a few students liked it, like the discount. Um, but again, it wasn't really. The huge, you know, best seller I was hoping for, or, you know, there's always the dream that somebody blogs about it. And you're like, yeah, million copies done, you know, you're so excited and, and that didn't happen.

So I, I guess I just. Kind of looked at my own pattern, which was, well, I don't actually read, uh, my wife reads eBooks, uh, almost exclusively. And I don't read print books anymore, really. I mean, I, I talk about them as we're going in class, so it's like, all right, let's make an audio book. And that was an expensive bet.

Uh, it's $400 per finished hour or $300 per finished hour, depending on the narrator you get. So a finished hour means they've recorded the hour and they'll charge you for what they record. They don't charge you for the amount of hours. It took them to make that recording. So it's just like, and that's yeah.

It's and that's, 

[00:11:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's your own person or that's someone on Amazon? 

[00:11:16] Tony Guerra, PharmD: That's someone on the audible? Well, it's, ACX audible creation exchange and you can look them up and, and people actually come to you. You put it up there and say, I'm willing to pay between 200 and 400 for the narrat. They come to you with a sample and you're just, it's just like you're in Hollywood and you're sitting there taking auditions and, uh, they're auditioning for your book.

And obviously the more you pay, the more auditions you'll get. And, 200 to 400 is a good price point. And so I took that leap and, and I didn't really think about it. And. Just kind of said, all right, well, it's a pain to study it. Maybe they'll listen on the way in. And, then it just took off. And, uh, really, I, I was really, really not expecting it, but I think, gosh, last year in the, in the E in all the books altogether, and I only make about 12,000 a year from the ebook 6,000 from the print book, but about 50,000 from the audio books now, which was.

Mind blowing to me that, you know, so many people would buy them. Uh, but that was just a big, big thing. And something Amazon did recently that kind of cut into those profits or will cut into those profits is you don't get bonuses anymore for people Bo um, Uh, joining Amazon in the way that they did before audible, they did before, but I'll still make 30 or 40 grand a year from the ebook, from the audio books alone.

So that's wow. That's fascinating. Yeah. It's just kind of a crazy, crazy niche that I got into by accident completely. 

[00:12:47] Mike Koelzer, Host: Now, are the people on, um, cause I've got, I've got a, a few books on Amazon and I just did those. I never even went to print. I just went right to an ebook. Mm-hmm . Those they're very few and far between when one is purchased, but when one is you get a little, you know, dopamine notification yeah.

A little, little dopamine. That's right. You get to skip the other drugs that day and get your dopamine from, uh, endogenously, I guess that's the word? Um, is that the same way in terms of with. Um, with Amazon, the eBooks, you know, basically people are downloading them. Is that the same way then with the audio that they're, that they're downloading them onto their like Amazon account?

[00:13:30] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. So you, you get an audible app versus the Amazon, uh, Kindle app. So it's just a different app. Um, but you can do that. You can go global and you'll get a lesser percentage or you can go with just. Just audible and you'll get a greater percentage per sale. And all of mine are exclusively audible and there's pluses and minuses to that.

So, but yeah, because audible, 

[00:13:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: Amazon owns auto bill audible now. 

[00:13:56] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. Yeah. They own 'em. Uh, but they're definitely separate in terms of the way that things work that way. So in terms of like, I get payments. Amazon for eBooks. And then I think it is audible for audiobooks. So they're different. They're different deposits into the bank account.

[00:14:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Wow. Would, would you, would you write differently knowing now that your, that your audible books took off, are there, are there nuances that you would do differently for. Written book versus the audible book. Yeah. 

[00:14:31] Tony Guerra, PharmD: So what you wanna do when you're making a book is you wanna have three different books in mind because each one is gonna have a different audience.

So for the print book, I know that it's gonna be in the classroom. So it needs to be set up a certain way for the e-book. And this is what I do with my eBooks now. But for example, if you put a multiple choice question in there, because you have unlimited pages, It doesn't cost you an extra paper page.

You put the question on the first page and then the question and the full answer on the next page, then the question on the full page question, full answer on the next page. So there are interactions that you can do with the ebook that you can't do with the print book. Uh, but also it's just, sometimes you're also thinking, all right, well, if this person has a smaller screen, you know, do I really wanna put this much text on there?

If they're gonna use an image, like a PowerPoint. Should I make it so it's horizontal or vertical. And so each one is kind of, you kind of get good at like, okay, well for this group, I'm gonna do this. And then for audio, for example, I'm working with a Mike lens right now. Who's out of upstate New York? And, uh, you know, we're like, okay, well, what do we do with these pictures?

And so now we're describing the pictures and then setting up, okay, well, let's say somebody just wants to breeze through the book. Okay, well, let's do it this way. And then all right. What if they wanna listen to the whole thing, then do it this way. So. each type. If you're making three, three types of a book, you're actually making three books.

In my opinion, that's 

[00:15:58] Mike Koelzer, Host: interest. All right now I'm listening to you and oh, you got this deep baritone. Just a great voice. That's not me. 

[00:16:06] Tony Guerra, PharmD: It's it's people I hire. 

[00:16:09] Mike Koelzer, Host: you, you had the toy. Did you toy with the idea of reading him yourself 

[00:16:12] Tony Guerra, PharmD: or not? Yeah, I've, I've done it and I found that I don't enjoy it. And I've, you know, I've got the three, eight year old girls and, uh, yeah, I just, I just find that, you know, after a session of recording it, I'm like this.

This is just making me angry. It just takes so much work and so much time and right. And here Mike lens on the other side. Oh, I love doing audio books. I love doing narration. I love I'm like, all right, man, you just do your thing and I'll do my thing. Things that you like on it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As, as is good in business in general.

Yeah. 

[00:16:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Well, that's fascinating because. Those numbers, those numbers that you're talking about. Um, that's really fascinating, cuz I hear, you know, I, I hear you. And a lot of our, our, our colleagues on the pharmacy internet talking about the, you know, the side hustle and that, and it's like, yeah, that's.

That's nice, but you know, I, I don't, I don't wanna sell something for, you know, make $6 on eBay or something, but those are some obviously huge, huge numbers you're talking about. 

[00:17:14] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. Well, the thing is, I do sell a lot of inexpensive things versus other people who sell expensive things. Trust me, I'd rather sell five things for, you know, a thousand dollars a month than, you know, have to put out.

Like, I think I sell about 600. No, because I've got two platforms. So I would say I sell about seven, 800 audio books a month making about $4 a book. So, all right, Tony, but I'm not, 

[00:17:42] Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm feeling sorry for you though. Cause I know you're not lugging around an audiobook, you're making it sound like.

You're making it sound like you're selling, uh, you know, baseball, Mitch or something that you have to lug up the stairs. 

[00:17:55] Tony Guerra, PharmD: yeah. And that's the thing, is it, so this is something you want to consider as you're kind of deciding on your side hustle. And honestly, I think your side hustle decides you, but, uh, what really happens is you, you wanna see, is this scalable?

Is this something that I have to do? Cause once I'm done with the book I'm done, just like once you're done with your shift and you're not the manager. You're done. You go home. And, and so there are many people that like to do services, coaching, uh, career coaching is a big new one. Yeah. Uh, that I see a lot of people doing and I have no interest in doing that because I'd have to do it again and then do it again.

And so I'll make a book that I'll make like $2 on about careers. Yeah. But I won't, I won't coach, so I don't do services. I only do products. You 

[00:18:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: Now, I, I found that, um, I, I found I'm the same way in terms of like, when I talked about how my disdain for hearing myself talk too much, I know no one's gonna believe that.

But when I think of that. And I think of like, um, like that's what I enjoy reading. Cause I, or writing, cuz I can come up with a thought, I can write it out once. And I'm like, yeah, that was that. That was a pretty fun thought or, or funny or sad or whatever. But I, I don't wanna be. A comedian has to like, say the same, same joke or same thought hundreds of times, you know, I'm I'm I like that.

Do it and move on. And I know what you're talking about. You're maybe talking more about passive income versus active, but also you, you can do it once in your head and then kinda like move on and not have to do it every day. Is that. Yeah. 

[00:19:32] Tony Guerra, PharmD: And, and if you look at the way that my books have come out, I've got kind of the four categories, pharmacotherapy, pharmacology, then you know, kind of, uh, stuff that's gonna help you with your career.

And there's one other one, but I just kind of, it's like, well, what's interesting right now. Or what's a problem right now. So next thing I'll probably, I, I've got a question and answer pharmacology book I'll be done with this week and then Mike's recording right now. And then in the fall I'll probably make a chemistry book.

And I don't know, it's just kinda like what's going on, but with what's going on with careers, I found that. Books about careers. Don't actually sell that terribly well, because although there are many pharmacists, there aren't that many that are moving in any given time. When I say not that many, I would mean like 20,000, 30,000, 40,000.

Where, when you have 3 million nurses that are thinking about pharmacology, it's a very different sized audience. So, oh, 

[00:20:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: you're talking about, you're talking about, if you had to, when you're talking about a career, are you talking about selling a book. To a pharmacist about something in their career versus someone who has to learn at 

[00:20:44] Tony Guerra, PharmD: that time.

Right. So I wrote a unicorn jobs book, basically. Like I have a unicorn job. I work at a community college and then other people have 'em and I just kind of made a book about that. But the audience for that is. Tiny like a couple, when you're talking tiny, I'm talking 10,000, 20,000 people that might be interested in it.

So I knew from the get go that that was the situation. And so my expectations for, you know, the big hit aren't there, but I thought it was valuable. So it was a passion project more than it was. Uh, man, I am gonna. I'm gonna retire on this one. Uh, so it really is. Sometimes I make stuff that I know will sell and sometimes I make stuff that I'm just like, I just kinda wanna write this.

Just kind of wanna get it outta my head and get it done. And yeah. And so for example, you might do something for, you know, K pharmacy . Okay, I'm gonna make this book about the pharmacy and the things that we offer and how pharmacists can help. And this would go to my client base and then you might have a hobby, which, you know, Just has to do with lake Michigan or something like that right.

Next door. Yeah. And, and that would be a totally different thing. So it's really just kind of deciding, okay, am I gonna make something that I'm, I'm worried about the revenue or not? 

[00:21:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Right. Because sometimes you just have to get it outta your head. Sometimes it's, as it's small as, uh, you know, people writing a memoir for their, you know, kids or grandkids or something like that.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Now when you, when, so, so if I have this right, you're saying that, um, The the, for someone to read a, a book about changing jobs or how to do this or that that's a small percentage versus someone like a nurse who they need to learn about pharmacy for a moment, but you're not asking them to.

Think about a career change to read your book, which those numbers are fewer and farther 

[00:22:30] Tony Guerra, PharmD: between. Right? So I'm just saying when, when people just say, you know, the, the first thing in marketing or business is to know your audience. Well, what you really wanna know is how big is that potential audience? And so you were like, well, you know, sometimes people click on your book and, and buy it and.

As I, as I look at them, it would be okay, well, this is probably to a narrow audience, but if you have audio, the other thing is, next year, your ebook, you get a little button on Amazon that they can listen to it. So it becomes a little bit different in that my advertisement talks and yours may not until you get an ebook on there.

Yeah. Or an audio. 

[00:23:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Do you think part of the, um, I know like the, um, you know, the social guru, Gary Vayner, Chuck is talking about, um, talking about the rise of now, the podcasts and things like that. Do you think, do you think the audio is, is on that same rise and, and a follow up question to that is do you think, um, do you think the audio is maybe more specific.

Pharmacy students who are in the car driving back to the school, or do you think it's just like the whole audio is, is truly taken 

[00:23:45] Tony Guerra, PharmD: off in the world? Okay. Well, that's a couple questions I can answer. 'em actually the, the big thing with the podcast actually had to do with the rental car companies. So there was the Sirius XM and those things that, you know, you could pay for.

And then, you know, you'd get a membership and so forth, but they just put the podcast app in the cars and that was free. So all of a sudden, every rental car across the country now does podcasts or it can get podcasts. And so that's oh, they 

[00:24:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: put the podcast versus the versus serious. 

[00:24:16] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Right? So now you 're like, oh, well your podcast app is there.

You can listen to whatever millions of podcasts you want all for free. And thank you very much. Now we don't have to pay for this serious subscription or something like that. Yeah. So that was 1, 1, 1 reason. I think it went on the rise. The other is anything that's going to allow you to do something else while you're working.

If you've got kids, like I do, you know, you're, you are at soccer games and basketball and practices where you are just supposed to be there, but you don't have to be there. You know? And so if you're, if you're, if you know, you're, you're listening and you're listening and you're, you're paying attention, 

[00:24:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: you can drive to go to the, go to the kids games, you know, wait for the hours between the.

Things they have to do, and your ears can be involved, but your eyes can be doing something else. And that's kind of some of the rise of the, uh, the verbal podcasts. And so. 

[00:25:07] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. And, and I think what, what we're really saying is how do you get in touch with your patients? How do you get in touch with, you know, the students, if they are, you know, pharmacy students and things like that.

And, and you're really listening to where they are. And, and if they come in and you say, here's our textbook and or here's your ebook and so forth. You're really not listening to what they're doing, because I think the number now is up to 75 or 80% of students would prefer that they can do almost their whole class on mobile.

So it's just moved so much towards mobile that, uh, you know, trying to engage with them is archaic. Techniques or technology, it's just not gonna, it's just not gonna work. So I think what you're doing is great in terms of your podcast, because now you're, this is, this is how I talk to other adults. yeah.

This is where I find time to talk to other adults and make friends and things like that. And, and your friends might not be in grand rapids. Your new friends might be across the country. Uh, you know, TLDR pharmacy is in Texas, uh, Blair is in Arkansas, right. Uh, you know, so the people that care most about exactly what you care about that tiny niche are across the country.

And this is just so much easier to do it in audio than it is another way. Yeah. The 

[00:26:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: world has definitely gotten smaller. You know, it's interesting when you talk about, um, Talk about technology because cuz I've been thinking one, one of the I've and I've had a few glitches and I apologize to you, Tony, hopefully for the, the, um, our listeners.

I can, I can pull some of these dead signals out that are on the phone, but I'm actually on purpose. I set this podcast, um, system. With an app on the phone, because I don't even wanna be at, necessarily a computer or a microphone. And right now, I'm at a cottage doing this. And so it's just amazing the things down to the actual app.

And when you mentioned about the, um, Students. Whenever I think of online classes, my mind always goes to me sitting at pharmacy school, you know, 25 years ago at my computer, which wasn't hardly even a computer back then, but it's, but like you say, 

[00:27:19] Tony Guerra, PharmD: what is it in a computer lab? No less. There was no, it wasn't on your lap.

It was no, you had to, you, the, the computer lab had to be open. Yeah. There had to be a computer open for you. Yeah. And then, then you could do whatever you needed to do on a computer, but it wasn't, uh, yeah, it wasn't. All right. Well, I'll just get my MacBook error out or I'll just try to get this done. So, I'm trying to respond in my classroom by creating content.

Now I'm using Teachable as the platform that I'll use and everything's got mobile, like quizzes and stuff. So, yeah. They never even really 

[00:27:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: dawned on me about the mobile aspect of online. I guess. I just wasn't, uh, Maybe I should stop smacking my kids around when they're on the phone and realize that they might be, they might be taking a class or something on it.

Yeah. I 

[00:28:05] Tony Guerra, PharmD: don't know. maybe. 

[00:28:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. We're gonna doubt that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What else? Um, you know, as, and. Okay. I guess I won't make apologies for this being the business of pharmacy. Let's talk business. If I have a product like you do with the oral audio seeming to really take off. Now that doesn't necessarily mean you love doing it because you, you know, I'm sure you like teaching and that kind of stuff, but is, is this a direction?

Business wise that you think you wanna go or, or what's, or what's different or what's next that you would do along these lines? Well, 

[00:28:47] Tony Guerra, PharmD: I think, I think it's actually, I'll probably be doing the same thing for a little while, but I think we maybe wanna speak to the pharmacy students who are there. In their classroom, thinking that they're gonna go to, you know, whatever retail and, and go and work in this certain setting.

But just as radiologists just found out that, you know, the Watson type, uh, artificial intelligence can do what they do pretty well. Yeah. Uh, I think that we're actually going to move to. They're going to go and it's going to be video. It's like, all right, well, I'm gonna go do a video chat with a patient or things like that, or, okay.

Well, the medicine was just delivered to you and telepharmacy is very much going well, it is a thing right now. Yeah. But because I'm in, in where I am and what I teach, I don't see a ton of it, but I think that that's the thing. to kind of the, the best thing that I think a student could do or a business owner could do is, is, and I think you probably figured this out a long time ago is get the hourly thing out of your head.

Yeah. You know, they're like, well, how much does a pharmacist make in an hour? And I was like, well, they might make this. Or they might make that. But as a business owner, you'd never. Well, the only reason you think about how much a pharmacist makes an hour is because you're hiring them. 

[00:30:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Right.

[00:30:06] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Exactly. Yeah. Right. But, but you're, you're not sitting there going, how much am I making an hour? You're going all right. Well, this month I need to clear 10 grand or this month I need to clear 20. And, you know, last, like, even, even when I have personal budgets, I'm like, woo. I went down for a grand last month. Oh, I'm up three grand this month, you know?

Yeah. And so I'm completely divorced from any kind of hourly wage. Things. It just all goes in the pot. So I think if we want to give some advice to the students and to the new entrepreneurs, maybe even some people that are trying to open their own pharmacies and things like that. Yeah. Find a way to, to get away from the hourly and start kind of serving people in a way that you're like, okay, well, how many people can I serve by doing this?

Yeah. And that's what I did with the audio now, you know, I. I teach. If you wanna think of it that way I teach 800 people that bought the book each month versus teaching 24 in a classroom. So it's a completely different sized audience. Yeah. 

[00:31:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. That's interesting. I was, um, Thinking about it, they were talking about, um, you know, self-driving cars and they said, oh yeah.

Um, they said that if, if, if right now, like if I back up right now and hit the neighbor's truck, I've learned that on a day like this with the sun shining. So, and after, you know, having a bud light and so on, you know that I'm not gonna tell you how many ounces, but, um, it, it, it, it teaches me that, but with.

With self-driving cars, you know, 3 billion people are gonna learn overnight. What problem was solved by me figuring something out or not me, but, you know, AR artificial intelligence, figuring something out with the situation I was in with the light glaring so much and this and that. So, you know, it really is a numbers thing now versus an hourly.

It truly is. 

[00:32:01] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah, but I think that unfortunately, the, the schools of, I, I'm not gonna say all of them, but, but many of the schools of pharmacy are still in this kind of, well, we're gonna teach 'em how to be good. Sort of clinicians where they're, they're doing the counseling and things like that. But honestly, I, I think that it's, it's just happened that now you've, if you're not in a residency, you're pretty much out.

And if you're not entrepreneurial you're out, uh, I think that it has to be one of those two where you've kind of gone into this advanced training where you kind of learn how to. And then the other way, uh, you build your own business, but that's how it was when we first started. It was either buy your own store or you go in and you still, you still had to run the business.

It was right. Yeah. I, I was always, I always knew I'd have to be a manager. It wasn't. It wasn't like, okay, well, I'm just going to go, you know, do my thing, count my pills and go home. It's not, I always had to worry about shrink and, and all these things. So 

[00:33:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: yeah, in a way, in a way that was handed, cuz I remember, I remember pharmacists of my dad years ago.

I mean, as they, they were like, They would like, you know, talk to you like it was their business and they knew their job depended on this. So on. But I think that somewhere got layered in, you know, partially because of the big boys saying, look at it, we know our way, don't bother with it. And so there, I think that divide was there, but you're right.

That's how it always was before. 

[00:33:28] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. So I think we're coming back to it. I think it's it's Hey, you know, you're gonna be in a business, uh, one way or the other, or you're gonna care about the bottom line because someone above you cares about the bottom line and it's gonna be more than just, it needs to be more than just one class on.

Okay. Well, if you were to have a community pharmacy, what would your, you know, operating cost be? What would your inventory be? You know, kind of a, a cursory business thing, rather what's the business of. You know, what's the business of therapeutics, what's the business of taking care of patients. What's the business of outcomes?

Those are the things I think they need to know. Yeah, you're 

[00:34:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: exactly right. Because the pharmacists who, who maybe have an independent class, it's like, yeah, that's a, that's a snapshot or that's the, um, that's an idea of. Everybody has to do it. And we're so used to maybe talking in these terms of how much someone should sell a P piece of, you know, bazooka gum to get the right.

You know what I mean? But yeah, but like that, that con that, that the heart of that has to really be. In, in every class, uh, to, to basically, you know, solve a 

[00:34:35] Tony Guerra, PharmD: need. Yeah. And, and that's what it is. But I think that, uh, we're, we're definitely, this year is it's the first time the students have, have ever run into, I think the students for the first time ever, or certainly in recent memory, uh, in the late eighties, which you may be, um, old enough to remember.

I am where in the late eighties, there's actually an oversupply of physicians. And that is just insane to think about with the primary care shortage we have right now. Yeah. Right. And, and right now the data show, but this is only coming from five schools that the unemployment rate at graduation is around 33% on average for the students, which is absolutely terrifying.

I'm sure some of them will. And it's going to be, I, I think it's only going to get worse right now and something will happen. I think that'll. Help them in terms of, you know, kind of figuring out, okay, well, I've got this problem. What should I do? And I think instead of those two options, hospital or retail, they'll kind of be given this kind of pass.

Like, all right, well, your, your opportunity in this way to just get started and get on your feet and get the golden handcuffs on isn't there. Yeah. So you are kind of entrepreneurial. Opportunity. That's kind of been thrown at you and now you've, you've kind of gotta make your way. And, and I think that that group is actually going to come out better in many ways than the group that had.

Okay, well, thank goodness. I got a job at this one, even though I'm a floater and driving an hour or two hours to a job, at least I have this job or I got the residency I wanted and now, you know, I've got this path, but that third I think is going to be. the most innovative or certainly the most innovations are gonna come from that group because they were given no options.

And just like somebody coming, you know, from another country, my dad's an immigrant. They weren't given the traditional options of here's this job or that they've got, okay, well, what can I do? And how can I make it in this environment? And I think, yeah, yeah, that's for sure they're gonna get it. So I, I don't think it's a good thing, but I think it's going to be innovative.

I think 

that, 

[00:36:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: well, so many people, so many people, including myself, Know, you kind of, you kind of had the golden handcuffs on you, you said in my, my school debt wasn't even that much when I'm talking the early nineties compared to the yeah. 

[00:36:54] Tony Guerra, PharmD: 60 grand, 55 grand. Yeah. 

[00:36:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. And, and, and, but you get the golden handcuffs saying, well, how, how dare I, you know, think of doing this when I, when this is what I'm, you know, I'm, I'm kind of like supposed to be doing this and so on.

And, and you're right with those, with those first and second choices. Maybe not as strong as before that, that third one is, um, it it's, it could be a mandate, but also like a kind of an invitation to that saying like, you know, you should do this almost. 

[00:37:23] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. And, and that's the thing is that, you know, okay, well, your option is to be a floater for 32 hours.

Maybe you'll get your hours. Maybe you won't or to say, okay, well, and, and I hate to use a business term, sunk cost with something like this, but it is a sunk cost. You've spent the money. You've gotten the degree. Now, what do you do with it? It's just like somebody going all right. Well, I got a bachelor's degree.

I'm not gonna go back and undo two years of school because it would've been more efficient to just do two years of school. Yeah. Uh, beforehand. So, if you think of it as a sunk cost, you're like all. I did that. This is the skillset I got. What am I gonna do now? And I think that once, once they get to that point, then there's a lot of innovation, but I think there's a lot of opportunity to support them.

So I think podcasts like yours are gonna be the things that they're turning to and like, all right, well, what did other people that are in my situation do? And that's when I think the solution comes as they start to see, okay, well, this other person graduated from Ferris state or this other person graduated from Michigan.

And this is what they do. And I think that's where the answers are. 

[00:38:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: So, and, and, and, and truthfully, now that with the, as we know that I, I keep telling my kids this, and this is not a new thought for me, but I keep instilling in them. It's. You guys, this is the best time to be alive because one, you don't have any middle men.

You don't have any, um, you know, any, any guys, uh, from the, the, the, the producers of the shows or the magazine articles that you have to fight to get through. You know, you, you can do this finally on your own. You have to be good enough, but you can do it on your own. The price of just doing anything has come down in the size and, and the space.

I was just talking to my wife earlier about moving someday. And I'm like, Martin, look at that whole wall of, you know, that whole wall of books and equipment and TV. And I said, that's in our hands right now. You know, we can, we can go down to a nice bag torch and a kitchen and we'd be all set. 

[00:39:25] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. It's absolutely true.

[00:39:27] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, Tony, listen, I, I love talking to you, but with this, um, I'm afraid that there's gonna be some wise words that come outta your mouth. I know they're going to, in my, in my setup here, going to drop you and lose them. So I want to, I unfortunately want to end now, but I hope I can get the promise out of you that once I get set up again and I stop dropping you on these calls that we chat again.

[00:39:54] Tony Guerra, PharmD: No, definitely. I wanna definitely keep up and, uh, I do listen to your podcast and keep up with what you're doing and, and I think it's so important that more will do what you do because, uh, there are a lot of people that need answers right now and what we really need is good business mentors. And, uh, hopefully you'll be that to a number of 

[00:40:11] Mike Koelzer, Host: students.

Yeah. And I will, and likely to you too, because they are the same to you too. And I know that you're. You even went so far on your leaders podcast. If I have it right. That you adjusted the name of it, just to really focus on what the need was now, right? Yeah. 

[00:40:26] Tony Guerra, PharmD: That's kind of a nice thing. Just like you said, you know, I don't have to ask the producer of Survivor. Hey, you know, I think, uh, this year they're gonna really.

Residency is the best bet because it's a 50-50 shot and we're getting 80 applications for each retail position. Yes. So let's help those guys and let's kind of talk about maybe they need to up the number of students that they're allowed to have with each residency director, because, uh, right now it's, it's.

Looking a bit glum for, uh, the graduates of this year. And hopefully we can give the guys next year a heads up. So at least they know, Hey, a third of our class or more is not going to have employment at graduation. Let me make sure that I prepare for that time, uh, rather than getting there in March, like I didn't match and.

Now what, and they really don't have a plan. So I think planning for that, planning for the worst ex or expecting the best planning for the worst, whatever that saying is I think that's what we can hopefully help them do. Yeah. 

[00:41:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: And I love, I mean, selfishly as, as a business owner and with, um, My, my team, of course my customers, but looking at my team, those are the people on my payroll.

That's who I focus on. I'm always looking at trends. You know, we've been in the business for a number of years and hopefully a number more, but I loved, in fact, I had just listened to your, um, episode 2 33 before we got on the line here and, um, talks a lot about what happened at, you know, Walmart and, and the incomes of pharmacists and things like that.

And I love that. You had said, well, we don't know what's happening because we only have like the 2000, you know, the figures from last year and, and, you know, figures in my head go back. Like, you know, things that are current for me are like 20 years ago. That's more current than 30 years ago, but it's, it's fascinating to me, the.

The, uh, the pivot that you are doing with your ear to the ground for these, these students. And I, and I think that is, that is wonderful. And I, and I just encourage everybody to follow you closely because. You're uh, you know, maybe none of us have the answers, but, but we at least might have the right questions that, you know, you're asking.

[00:42:41] Tony Guerra, PharmD: Yeah. Together, we can put together our own little pharmacy X or space X or whatever it is. . Yes, 

[00:42:46] Mike Koelzer, Host: definitely. Well, Tony, you, you are a lot of fun to talk to and I, and I want to get on hold. I want to get on with you again, but let's, uh, let's make sure that I at least have some audio from, from our connection here and then we'll and then we'll plan to talk again soon.

Sounds good. Thanks again. All right. Thanks a lot, Tony. Bye-bye see you. Bye.

This was the business of pharmacy podcast with me. Your host, Mike Keer. Please subscribe for future episodes.