The Power of Storytelling | Joe Baker, MBA, author of 'Baker's Dirty Dozen'

Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and is intended to capture the essence of the conversation. However, please note that it may contain multiple errors and inaccuracies. It should not be relied upon as an exact or comprehensive record of the discussion.

Joe Baker, MBA: [00:00:00] Hello, Joe. Hello? Are you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Mike? I'm doing well. Hey Joe, for those that haven't come across you online. Introduce yourself to the listeners. Tell them why we're talking tonight? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, appreciate being on the show, Mike, my name is Joe Baker. Come to you from little rock Arkansas, where I have taught personal finance to the university of RSL college of pharmacy, P three students for the last 21 years and doing so, uh, during this past year and a half, I allow with my daughter, Lindsey have written a finance book designed for that age group.

And it is called Baker's dirty dozen principles for financial independence. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What age group? When you say Lindsey, how old 

Joe Baker, MBA: is she? Lindsey is 33, but the book is really designed for the gen Y and the millennials. Uh, for 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What age group millennials go through? 30 something almost 

Joe Baker, MBA: 40. The book is not exclusive to those two generations, especially the stories 

Mike Koelzer, Host: and what's generation 

Joe Baker, MBA: Y generation wise the one that comes just after the millennials, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: after the millennials.

So they're 

early 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to mid twenties yet early twenties. Let me ask this, Joe, I'm wondering about this theory. Tell me if I'm right or not that Gen Ys, they're not interested in buying houses. They're not interested in having the big lawns. And I think part of that is because of maybe our recession or something like that, but they're more interested in experiences of hanging out with their friends and going to the coffee shops and that stuff.

And they're not maybe comparing cows values, like their house might not be a status symbol and so on. And I'm all off on that. Is that just a myth? No, 

Joe Baker, MBA: it, a matter of fact that has bled into the millennials thinking, you know, how people are holding off buying houses, uh, and, and this saying. Like, I'm kidding about this, but it's like a state sale, you know, you can't sell China anymore because nobody wants to buy it.

The younger people don't want to buy, they don't want to inherit anything as far as furniture from their parents or grandparents. Uh, there's no sentimentality. It seems. And I don't know how to explain that, except maybe how you did this. Just like we're more into relationships and there may not be anything wrong with that.

Mike Koelzer, Host: There may not be, except that 

Joe Baker, MBA: if I don't buy my house when I'm raised, sell it.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. They better turn around by the time we're ready to sell stuff. Yeah. But I'm even hearing, like I got a number of kids and I'm even hearing not maybe directly from them, but it's like, these people are going out on dates. And I mean, when I grew up, it was always, I always spraying for. Things for Margaret, my wife, when the guy went out, I'd always buy the burger or the, you don't see that.

Now the milkshakes, the movies, that's different. Now these boys and girls are young men and young women they're pulling out their phone and like Venmo, knowing each 

Joe Baker, MBA: other. I was just about to tell you that that is what is happening even on dates and dates. Yeah. I asked my daughter, "Why did you Venmo Shane?

It wasn't in Vogue. When I was my age, I had to pay for everything. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: If I was a thinker, I'd probably say, you know, maybe that's good because the guys now, now this isn't me talking. This is some other movements where maybe the women say, you know, the guys buy all this stuff and then they expect something of it.

Favors. Let's just put it that way now. I don't think that's the case. I just think it's cheap guys who are, who don't have a lot of income for whatever, the reason I don't know. So we were talking a little bit, Joel, so give us a rundown of your book coming out. You had sent it to me and I got through the whole thing, skimmed the whole thing and read some of it.

And it's fascinating. It's got really down to earth stuff. It's very chunky in terms of there's a lot of info in it. It seems like there are a lot of cool stories in it. Good information. There's one area though that I think you might've messed up on. I think you accidentally got my podcast in there and I don't know how the hell 

Joe Baker, MBA: that happened, but, well, it was strategic planning that I might get on your show.

One day. I didn't use that much type set. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You'd [00:05:00] get out of my show. Just if you didn't make me pay for my own milkshake and burger, if we ever go out. So now that would be the only favor. What's the timing on that? That's coming out soon. 

Joe Baker, MBA: It is, uh, pre-sales starts November. The first, the actual book will be published, uh, like the 14th of November.

So we're right on the cusp of, uh, Uh, of it being published, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: tell our listeners for all the young punks, listening to this, tell them what a baker is because your last name is baker. Tell them what a Baker's dozen was. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, back in the 14 or 15 hundreds in the medieval time. W uh, and Europe, if you had a bakery, you know, weights and measures, weren't accurate back then.

And if you were a baker and you gave out some bread or rolls or something, and you did not give enough, you could either be fine or flogged. So what the baker would do is just throw in an extra one, which would be. A dozen plus one would be 13. This would prevent the biker from getting in trouble with the authorities.

So that's, that's come to being and, and quite frankly, just a little rhyme of it. Baker sturdy. As a fan of the old movie, it's clever. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's clever back in the Baker's dozen, obviously people can count to 12. Was it just in case you didn't count to 12 or was it more a weight thing?

Joe Baker, MBA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cause you could have a small pastry or a large pastry and, and it had to be a certain white. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. And where does " dirty come from in the title? 

Joe Baker, MBA: One of my favorite movies, the dirty dozen who was in that, oh, that was a classic with Lee Marvin. He takes, uh, 13 us prisoners from the military and goes on to a secret mission and whoever survives gets a pardon and sleeve Marvin Ernest Borgnine.

And it came out in bites like 19, 70, 71, something like that. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I got to say, cause I was born in 66. So I would have been about, you know, just a baby. I would have been like five. Now I remember, you know, towering Inferno and okay. Great, accurate. Ortho James Simpson. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Oh yes. Well, he was, as a matter of fact, he was in the dirty dozen.

No way. Yes, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you it's brown. Um, oh, uh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Jim brown, 

Joe Baker, MBA: Jim Brown got the running backs mixed up. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Jim was a heck of a heck of running back. So that Gale Sayers just 

Joe Baker, MBA: passed away a couple of, yes. And I had the opportunity to meet him many years ago. Yes I did. I even got his business card.

I didn't get his autograph because I just thought it was kind of silly having someone sign something, but he was one of the nicest people I've ever met. He, you know, he talked to you 1 0 1 and he was just, he was in the back. When I met him, about 20 years ago, he was, uh, uh, doing some cute computer softwares, uh, stuff.

And I met him at a business function, but he was, he was really, really neat. I even had the, uh, of course I said, Mr Sayers. Um, how much of that Bryan song is true? He laughed. He says all of it is true. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So, um, for the listeners that don't know, Brian's song was a movie of Brian Piccolo, Gale Sayers. I think they were rookies in the same year for Chicago and, and Piccolo got cancer.

And, um, and then Sayers came out with, I think it was even labeled, I am third. It was God to others. And then your, something like that before it was named Bryan song, but it was sad all the way around. It's 

Joe Baker, MBA: a, it's a, it's a tear jerker, but it's very uplifting tear jerker 

Mike Koelzer, Host: he had just a different stride and was so fluid.

I think that, I think the word is, 

Joe Baker, MBA: oh, he was so fluid. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yes. Baker's dirty dozen. The title sort of gives it away. 13 summary lessons of financial principles, and so on principles that stand the test of time. But you come at it from especially the angle of teaching pharmacy all this time. I had 

Joe Baker, MBA: really two goals for this and I'm sure both of them are self-serving, but so be it.

Uh, the first, first was the macro goal is to get as much information out there about, uh, financial. Uh, I'll call it financial literacy as much as possible because there's just so many people. And we're talking about pharmacists, doctors, lawyers who have high QS, but they don't know anything about finances.

It's just, it's really, really incredible. [00:10:00] And so I wanted to reach as many people as I could. And the micro was selfish as well. Having two daughters that were liberal arts majors and a son in law, who's a liberal arts major. And I'd noticed your background. He's very similar to your track.

He's working on his dissertation in theology right now. So since they were all liberal arts majors, they weren't exposed to money that much. And I said, do you know if I can get my daughters and son-in-law to help edit this book? I might not have them depend on me later on. So, and if I could just catch a detour a little bit, it would really work because we were playing cards at, um, at our houses, uh, the summer.

And we, every Friday night we have a bunch of friends over and I was like a bunch, but six or eight. And it just so happened. My daughter, her son, and my son-in-law were there. And one of the players, the card player, he's a lawyer. And we were talking about, you know, finances a little bit. He said, well, I couldn't tell you the difference between an IRA and a Roth IRA and just don't cue my son-in-law to the right of me.

Stark's explaining in detail all the con uh, tax consequences and why it's a good thing. If the tax rates are up, when you pull it out, I turned to him and I said, How did you know that he said from your book that I edited, I said it worked. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's good. That's good. Now I know from reading through the book that you were not playing poker, probably.

Joe Baker, MBA: No, it's a, we call it. Oh, Hey. If you're up north, it would be called something else, but we're in the, we're in the south and we're very, um, Bible belt, ish. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We're customers. Yeah. I don't like it, I hate it. I hate board games. You know, I realized that they call board games, board games because the word board is in them.

And then I realized that they make plastic coated cards in case I get so sick of playing that I barfed on them and they can clean them up. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, this is, uh, stood the test of time as far as, uh, our little group and it's cheap entertainment. Uh, a deck of cards, um, in a margarita will cure just about 

Mike Koelzer, Host: anything years ago without my kids find it hard to believe that I say, guys, we had Ruda.

Rudolph was on once a year on CBS at eight o'clock on December 19th. And if you missed it, you missed it. You know? And when you tell the millennials and the gen Ys, and you say, we didn't have VCRs, we didn't have computers. You didn't have, uh, I guess she had records and things like that, but it was certainly a, um, a nice way to get together with people.

It was cheap, it was fun. And, um, it was a decent way to go. Joe. My upbringing was, my dad was a business owner and he owned the pharmacy and. He didn't really preach business and money matters to us, but he would always share things as they came up. One thing I never understood from my dad is like, Mike, how much money do you have?

I'm like, you know, as an eight year old, I'm like, well, dad, I got, you know, 20 bucks and we'd be going into Cedar point, you know, or an amusement park. And he'd said, well, why don't you let me have that? Because if you lose it, you've lost your money. If I lose it, I've lost my money. Now what he meant there, he was trying to be very loving, fatherly about it, saying that if I lose it, I'll, I'll pay you back.

You know, kind of thing. That's one thing I never understand. I'm like, I didn't cuss like this as an eight year old, but I'm like, but now I'm thinking it's like, what the hell did he mean that it's his money? If he loses that he was just being nice about it. So for me, It's foreign to me that this wouldn't be as basic as, as you know, the back of your hand.

But, you had mentioned that you were talking about it to your daughter. Who's 33 and she was maybe doing some proofing for you, but she was coming across concepts that. Kind of foreign to her, right? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Yeah, exactly. I actually started writing the book August the 15th of last year and I was whizzing through it.

I was, uh, tell you what lightning speed is. Um, mainly it was maybe I shouldn't tell this story, but I will anyway, my wife was in and out of the hospital during all that time. I mean, she's okay now, but she spent a lot of time in the hospital and, um, you know, it's tough writing a book in the hospital, but especially when your wife is over there, moaning in pain.

And I have to go to get the nurses to bring some pain pills in here and say, Hey, I'm trying to [00:15:00] write a book. Can we get some pain pills in here? And you can only 

Mike Koelzer, Host: say shut up to her so many times before people think you're, you're starting to be a 

Joe Baker, MBA: a little bit rude to her. Yeah. And when she brings up that, I say, honey, I think you were just hallucinating.

Mike Koelzer, Host: So, 

Joe Baker, MBA: But fast forward, I thought I had finished just about all the books in, uh, during the Christmas break in January of this year. So my liberal arts daughter, Lindsey, said, well, let me read it, Joe. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Let me backup just a second. Okay. Part of the reason you were whizzing through this is you've probably at one point have talked through all these.

The stories that are yours. You've probably talked through all of these in your, in your class over the years. Right. And then how many years was 

Joe Baker, MBA: that? Well, I've taught at university of Arkansas college pharmacy for 21 years. Most of them are both semesters, um, finance, finance, personal finance for the . I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: mean, you're basically like, uh, tuned in, um, well, let's say a comedian will do this, or, you know, stage actor will, they'll, they'll have this timing down.

They know what's going to hit and when it's gonna hit and when the students are sleeping or when they stay awake and things. So you could really be writing this from all that experience and making it pretty damn interesting because you've already tested it on a crowd for 20 

Joe Baker, MBA: years. Yes. But unfortunately I had a lot of technical information in there as well.

And Lee and Lindsey she'd come across something. What opportunity costs, what does that mean? I said, well, it's right there in black and white. She says that is, I don't know what that means. And I said, well, you don't understand. This book is designed for your age group. You've got to know. And she said, well, I don't understand it.

So, uh, we would hash it out. I would, I would explain it to her, then she'd explain it back to me. And once she explained back to me correctly, she rewrote it. We, I would say we went paragraph by paragraph for two solid weeks during the spring, uh, during the Christmas break and she edited it. So she threw out a bunch of my good stories too, because she thought they were well, quite frankly, politically incorrect, but they were funny.

One time she fell down on the floor and said that she was just dying. Last again. You can not tell 

Mike Koelzer, Host: this story now, come on. You've got me excited now. Now tone it down. But remember our listeners are grown adults here. So give me a little example 

Joe Baker, MBA: here. I will tell you the story, but I'm just going to tell you right now, it's not in the book.

All right. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So 

Joe Baker, MBA: cause she yanked it. Yes, she did. All right. This is the, this is typical and I don't think it's, you know, the ans just five minutes. Cause it's funny. Um, a buddy of mine, uh, uh, grew up with it. Uh, well he is right now, six disease, 67 years old, about five years ago. He decided he wanted a Brian.

To help him raise his, uh, other kids from his first marriage. So he goes, um, shopping online and gets a Filipino bride and he gets her home and she's just cute. She can be a great wife, just, just wonderful. And, uh, evidently they're a little fiery and knowing him and also she's 20 years younger than he is.

So he got her a little upset. So she pulls out a machete and chases him around the house. And he's telling me the story. And I said, right, Oh, yeah. I said that is awful and dangerous. He says, but you don't understand. She's sweet. 85% of the time it wasn't that bad. It couldn't send her back. Because he lost the mail order receipt.

Mike Koelzer, Host: And now, now that not, that's not true. Right? That's amazing. Those are true 

Joe Baker, MBA: stories. True story. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Now, wait a minute. You told me that when we were talking before you told me you've got a ton of stories from other people in here, is it actually written in their hand or did they tell it to you and your then putting it into your prose?

I 

Joe Baker, MBA: solicited, uh, uh, from all around. I said, if you'd like to have your financial story considered, please send it to me. And the only thing we did was Lindsey edited it. Cause you know, a lot of people can't. As well, but there it is in their words, really? Yes. And there are some, there's some that will make you cringe, but it all falls into a purpose to help back up something else.

Like if you're, you know, the, the vices of gambling and stories like that, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the things that Lindsey [00:20:00] did besides cleaning things up a little bit. And I don't mean, I don't mean the editing. I mean, the stories, what were you doing? What did she catch? What was the error of your ways for that group? And how did you miss that?

Why were you missing? 

Joe Baker, MBA: You know, I don't know if it's a generational thing or just something with me, as you know, there's just some people that are creative writers and both my daughters, they are, their writing skills are just unreal. I would, I would, you know, I've read this book a thousand times and then one day I was in the dining room and I.

I said, wow, this is, I don't remember writing this. And Lindsay says, uh, you did not. I had that. I said, my shoes sounded pretty good there. I mean, it is, it's just subtle things and how they're using certain words or phrases. It's, it's, it's really remarkable, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: basically the same gist of the paragraph even, but they would just spice up the words a little bit or something 

Joe Baker, MBA: if you had mine next to, uh Linsey's there's just no comparison.

Really? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yes. There sure are some gifts that people have that you don't even know about. There, because I'm sure you thought of yourself as a good writer and teacher and so on. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, I thought it was a good storyteller until she yanked those stories out. Thanks a lot, Lindsay. My next book is going to be the unabridged storytelling by Joe Baker.

And you're still teaching. I'm still teaching and I'm not going to run for office. I don't care. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It used to be like, Hey, I got this good story. Now you're going to get up there and say, uh, I'm not sure if you guys are gonna like this. And then you're going to tell this same story, 

you 

Joe Baker, MBA: know, funny ha you should mention that because during both semesters, while I was writing this book, I tested a story and I said, uh, we're agreeing with Lindsay.

I should not be in there

quite a good laugh. They laugh. But 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Joe, with your daughter. Going to liberal arts schools. Was there anything there that they liked that disagreed on the stance of being a different political persuasion or a different, well, this is against women. Dad, you can't do this, or this is racist. You can't do this. Were there any of those things that you, and I'm not saying they were bad or good, but, and we don't want to get into the details because we're not saying who's right or wrong, but were there any that they said, this is sensitive, dad, you can't do this 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, it's, it's funny.

She mentioned that a perfect example of that is from my principle 13, make a difference in your family, community and place of worship. Before I had a family, community and church, and my daughter, one of my daughters says, you know, you gotta be more inclusive and it's like a place of worship. Because you have mosques and temples.

And that's all, just little things like that. My generation, we just don't even think of, but they were really pushed. The society is called a. The social governance and environmental aspect of investing. They like that. And we have a special section, uh, that 's my daughter's choice. They, they like investing in companies like black rock that have, uh, socially conscience in, in their investments.

Mike Koelzer, Host: There's probably a lot of those. Are probably decent. I don't like to agree with any of them. Cause I don't like to give an inch on many things to my daughters. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, my book would've been pretty short if it hadn't been. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So in other words, you had to give the enter. They would have pulled everything out of it.

They just, I got like three daughters that are, or two daughters that are vegan and they're vegan for moral reasons, not just for being moral in terms of the environment, you know, not like God doesn't want this, but more moral in terms of the environment. So I came down one breakfast and I said to my daughter, I said, look, I'm, I'm eating cage-free eggs.

And I know they're eggs still, but, and I'm not a vegan, but I'm eating cage-free eggs. She said, well, dad, they still cut the beaks off of those. So they don't do this and this and this. And I said, well, well, they might be B-plus, but they're not an occasion. Also, I'm trying to save myself. I'm trying to save myself here, you know?

And she said, it's still just as bad and this and this and this. So I thought it was the appropriate time to pull out my ACE in the hole. And I came in with, well, graze, oh, I shouldn't have said her name. I came into my daughters. I came into my daughter. I said, well, Jesus ate fish. Well, then she came back with.[00:25:00] 

Then Jesus was wrong. Oh boy. So then I come in with my over the top, 

Joe Baker, MBA: the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: dad thing, the over the top, pretend like I'm really offended. And like, Jesus needs me to stick up for him. You know, I come in with great. I come in with, I come to my daughter and I say, well, no, I, you know, this and that. Well, then she kind of runs out or doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

And so as she's going up the stairs, I'm yelling up the stairs. I'm like, well, I didn't bring up the beak list chicken and my wife's yelling. Calm down. Cause it's only seven in the morning, stuff like that. But I think if I wrote a book, I think it would just, it would, I would have a front cover and end cover and nothing in between if my daughter's edited that.

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, unfortunately some of the numbers stayed in because they're universally accepted, but yeah, the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: numbers have to stay. Let's say that you had an editor on your back, you know, someone really pushing you and pushing you. What have you learned from this experience? If you had to write another book, what would you have done differently, a different order.

Would you have outlined it differently? Would you have got someone involved earlier? What would make it simpler next time? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, I love stories. I would love to have more stories. Of course, you know, we have. Not, not counting my stories, but from contributors about 35 stories. So that's just from, but I filled it with a lot of my stories as well.

And, uh, that would be probably the only thing. Um, uh, I, I got admitted once Lindsay and Brooke and her husband gay got involved. It just, uh, it went really, really well. I didn't get to just tell all my stories, but Hey, that's um, that's okay. Because it is very inclusive and, and there's nothing in there that I think could offend anybody, but, um, uh, But I'm really pleased with it.

So I doubt if I ever do another book because this was, this was something else it's hard. It is. And I heard you on one podcast want, uh, tell us, somebody say, well, why don't you write a book? You were telling your guests. Yeah. And she said, oh, we thought about it. And then you added, you know, it gives a defining moment in your life.

And that's the way I've looked at this. As you know, you don't make any money off of books. Your book is like funnels to a YouTube channel or a podcast, and I'm not doing any of that. Uh, I worked hard to keep this book under $20 because I was just like paperbacks over 20 are just non-existent, which cuts into some money, but not making much.

I just want to get it in as many young people's hands as possible. And, uh, Except no money. Y'all mentioned Vanguard in the book and some other companies, Investopedia, and I took no money from anybody. So, um, pure as the driven snow financially speaking of course, but pure as 

Mike Koelzer, Host: snow or 

Joe Baker, MBA: something.

That's the Southern term pure as the driven snow, even though we don't have snow 

Mike Koelzer, Host: books are tough. This might've been the episode you're referring to, but a few years ago I wrote a hundred blog posts and it happens to be that about 50 were business and 50 were kind of family. So I split them up into two books, put them on, uh, Amazon and.

I think one of the hardest things to do there are probably 99 people around who say they're working on a book compared to the person that says they've, they've finished it. And I did that with a, a musical album I made twenty-five years ago, just it's got, uh, a fan base of one. That's just me and these couple of books I wrote.

There's just something really difficult, but really satisfying about finishing something. Yes, 

Joe Baker, MBA: exactly. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: And it's hard to finish something. Well, you know, this Joe, when you think you're 5% away from being done, you're about halfway done. Sure. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Once you say up until the type set was done, They kept saying, this is the deadline, there's a deadline.

I'd keep sending something else. Cause you may be in the shower or driving and you think of something to say, you know, that would be really good in there. And, but there has to be a deadline and 

Mike Koelzer, Host: there has to be a deadline, but you can, 

Joe Baker, MBA: but you're satisfied with when it's finished and I'll be even more excited when I actually have one in my 

Mike Koelzer, Host: hand.

Oh, that's a time when you get one in your hand and yet, and then you get to smell it. And then, and then Joe, you got to kind of kick your wife out of bed that night because you're going to [00:30:00] sleep with it right on your 

Joe Baker, MBA: pillow. That would be between the covers, right? The book. Yeah, there you go. That's a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: comedy, but.

Years ago, I stopped selling contraceptives in my pharmacy about 20 years ago. And I wrote a book on the story of that. And it was a lot about my dad and my relationship, uh, emotionally, who was the emotional leader, who was the emotional child. Did that ever switch? You know, how did all that come together?

And I had this book written for probably five years. And during that time, my faith would, what's the best way to put it. My, my faith would change where I might not describe something the same way now, as I did 10 years ago, you know, for example, 10 years ago, I might've said, I felt like God was blah-blah-blah and now I might say sometimes, I don't know.

What's the phrase, my head from a hole in the ground 

Joe Baker, MBA: for you you're close, but that was taken out of my book too. So,

Mike Koelzer, Host: So I might've said it that way back then, but now I might say, you know, half the time I'm screwed up, my thoughts go in and out. I have no idea where these thoughts are coming from. Maybe it's coming from God. Maybe God's telling me this. Maybe it's coming from selfishness. Maybe it's coming from fear. I don't know.

But for some reason at that time I felt I had to do this now. That's a hell of a lot different from saying, I feel God was telling me this, you know, but I got advice and they just said, you've got to write the book from basically where you are at that time. And that's, what books do they capture?

They have a front and a back cover and they capture things. They force you to go down and later you can do something else if you want to switch your thoughts around. But that's an interesting thing about a book because it captures your thoughts at that time. I mean, my thoughts in that book are basically as a 25 year old or, you know, 30 year old.

And so are the words to my songs that I did. So no more books left in you, Jo? No, no, this is 

Joe Baker, MBA: this is it. Are you sure if I, if I were to ever do, uh, another book, it'd be a short one on networking because I think the kids are missing out on some good network. Uh, opportunities today because we're in a social media type where face-to-face, and you know, all, all of that.

I do touch on that a little bit in the book, but it's more on a financial nature, but networking, um, will, will actually be good and finances 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to w would you include the social media and computer to things, or would you try to stay away from it? I think 

Joe Baker, MBA: you would have to do it, uh, and I think the jury is still out on, you know, Well before COVID I walked in a restaurant one time and, and, uh, sitting there and looked over and these four college girls were not even conversing.

They were all on their, um, devices. And I did make a comment. I said, you know, when I left, I didn't want to be stoned while I was there. But I said, when I left, I said, it's none of my business, but you know, you guys are here together. You nearly need to share the time together. And I, then I'm sure they said something bad after I left, but, oh, well, I, I was, I was just, I was in the, uh, running mode ready to go.

And they were probably texting each other. So who was that old fool? You 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I did a blog post on that one time though. And it is the common thought that everybody's doing that. But I remember a couple of things like. Joe. That's how I run these podcasts. I always pretend like the person I'm riding with up to my cottage, which was my dad's cottage a couple hours up north.

Right? When I'm in the car riding up there, I never say I have to cover everything we need to know about something. It's like, what's coming up at the moment that we want to talk about. There's two devil's advocates. I'll play to the people sitting around texting, because I don't necessarily disagree with you, but.

I've got this picture of my dad up in the cottage way before social media. And we didn't have a TV. And because of TV, you can make the same argument that everybody was glued to the TV. Everybody's glued to the TV. No, one's talking to each other. So we were up there at the cottage, no TV, no social media.

And I got this picture of my dad reading, you know, my dad was like 55 or so at my age, [00:35:00] at the time. Yes. You know, cottage magazines are like four years old, you know, and nobody throws them out and they just stay up there, you know? But my dad was reading like, um, I have a picture of him reading, like cosmopolitan or something like that, or RedBook you know, because you run out of stuff to read.

So it wasn't like we were all sitting around and singing songs. Everybody still had their nose in maybe a three-year-old magazine because people are people. So sometimes like my family we'll be sitting around by the fireplace and there, the TV is not on and we're all looking at our phones, but sometimes there's still interesting conversations going on, you know, Hey, did you hear this?

Did you do that? And you can talk because nobody's saying, you know, shut up. I got to catch the end of this show or something like that. 

Joe Baker, MBA: But that's why we like our card game is because you can have conversations while you're playing cards. I don't know the difference between an IRA and a Roth IRA, but I don't, I don't think there's going to be a reservation either.

It's um, it's, you know, it takes a lot of energy to write a book. It's a lot of energy, a lot of weight Lindsay said, I don't understand how you're using, uh, what citation, uh, protocol are you using? I said, what are you talking about? She says, well, you just can't just put down somebody else's words. You've got to sign it and then either change it up.

Or, you know, I have all these symbols or something. A box, Dan. Yeah. And she's teaching. She teaches at a private school here. Eighth grade is social studies slash geography, but she teaches citations like in writing and bibliographies and all that to the eighth graders. I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: hope you told her while you do it, if you think you're so smart, she did do, I saw like you had a, you had a list in there by, by Rachel Cruz, you know, four or five points about something.

That's what she's talking about. Right. You've got to, you got to notate all that stuff and put all that 

Joe Baker, MBA: in there. I think they're about 111 citations. Isn't something along that line. Yes. You think y'all, this is my knowledge. Heck no, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: There's two different kinds of books. They're like books. Like I wrote where I quoted my grandma and my.

Eight year old friend and things like that, but then there's real books like yours. And I think at some point that's a real big feather in the cap for that kind of book of having all those citations 

Joe Baker, MBA: and stuff. Well, it's, it was, um, it was an awakening to all the rules involved. And fortunately, I had a dollar that I knew about and she was able to go through it and make sure that everything was done.

Right. And plus we had a copy editor too, but there's no doubt in my mind, she cleaned up so much before it went to the, uh, the true 

Mike Koelzer, Host: copy editor. What does your other daughter do with the liberal 

Joe Baker, MBA: arts? Uh, she was teaching at, um, in New Jersey while her husband, my son-in-law, was at Drew University working on his PhD.

Then she just a few months ago. Got, well, she's there now, but the summer she got excited. And the UCLA program for doctoral and the area of study, I kid you not, is near Eastern languages and cultures. That's a real, really a study, but she, you know, she speaks some Syriac, Arabic, um, uh, Spanish. She was a Spanish major and undergraduate.

So she has that brain that you just pick up languages like crazy. And, um, so she'll either teach or work for the CIA one day, I guess, but who knows? Uh, but they're both in, uh, Los Angeles now and he's working on his dissertation for his PhD and, and she is. In classes now, virtually of course, for her PhD, what is he studying?

It's along the lines of ethics and theology. And, and I forgot his, uh, would tell you his dissertation, but it's so long. And he 

Mike Koelzer, Host: convoluted that very specific, right? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Yes it is. And, but it's mostly in the area of, uh, Christian ethics and theology philosophy. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: She's philosophy. Don't get me going. I was down in the seminary for a year thinking I was going to, I needed to try the priests that I needed to leave 500 miles away to give it a shot, get away from my family.

Wasn't really, for me, we'd have these. Philosophy classes. And I just come in and back, you know, and just sit there. But all these guys that I'll sit up front and the teacher would say something, I'd have no freaking idea what he said. And then one of the students would say something and then they'd all get a good [00:40:00] chuckle.

And I had no clue what was going on. So I knew that wasn't my thing. Where did you end up teaching this class? I mean, how did you go from your degree in what 

Joe Baker, MBA: majored in marketing? Because in my undergraduates, it sounds terrible. Especially when I'm dealing in numbers now at my university where I went, they were two majors that you can major in and not have to take college algebra.

It was a pre law and marketing business. And, but pre law, you had to have a foreign language. I said, well, I guess I'll be a marketing major then. And ended up marrying a math teacher on top of that, but I majored in marketing and. And I did teach high school marketing for about, uh, 40, why not about four years.

And I'd still be in that secondary, um, arena, if it weren't for a friend of mine who ran for Congress and asked me to work in his congressional campaign and, and with the thoughts of going to DC and all that sort of thing, and he lost two percentage points in the runoff. So then I had to get a real job and got into insurance.

And with pharmacist's mutual companies, sir, 28 years to the day with them and retired early last year. Um, I always like to say I retired early and back in the nineties, I was always at the college of pharmacy and this, you know, I talked to him about maybe doing a class, basically I knew, knew just about everybody at the college, most of the pharmacists in state.

So I wasn't the least, uh, uh, you know, a foreign person. And I'd hear these stories about the students back in 90 in the nineties where they'd get out and make 50,000 a year, which was more than 95% of the Arkansans and they were going broke. And I said, what, you know, what about a little, uh, finance course talking about student loans and some of the other things, and it just kinda morphed into an actual class.

And, and I will say this not, I'm not bragging on me, but it is the most. I mean, not their most important, it's the most, uh, desired elective at the university of Arizona college of pharmacy. And, but it's because of the content, you know, uh, I'm not an eloquent speaker, but I tell them the first day of classes I listen, if you just pay attention, we're not going to worry about grades, but if you miss a class, it could be a million dollar decision.

There may be something that I say during that time, it'd be worth a million dollars. And I said, I would also say, just trust me. My goal is that you'll never sit in the back of this class and say, when am I ever going to use that? That is my goal because we've all been there. And I say, I'm just going to tell you exactly what you really need to know and nothing 

Mike Koelzer, Host: more, you know, Joe, you, you made that into a, um, black and white issue between being a good teacher or good content, but you forgot about the good looks.

Joe Baker, MBA: If you say I'm married.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, now let's throw that out. That's not an option anymore 

Joe Baker, MBA: then I will tell you this. I don't look at the students the same anymore, because about 10 years in, I was doing the first day of class and I had a student come up and say, uh, Mr. Joe, I think you used to date my mother-in-law in college. You know, you're not starting off this class.

Very good way to 

Mike Koelzer, Host: start. So the pharmacy. Mutual you're, you're associating with a lot of pharmacists that got you probably physically around the schools. Sometimes you're meeting someone there or something. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, it did because, uh, they, the students had the student liability policy. So I would be, I would be there at registration each year and I can remember, and it was probably a 98 because I started class in 99 that we were, I was sitting here with the Dean and the assistant Dean, and we were just talking about money and students struggling after they get out.

And I said, well, you know, they're making this much money. Why are they struggling? And it comes down to choices. And I said, well, maybe we could do a class. Cause I was working on my MBA at the time, uh, with the, an idea of maybe teaching on the undergraduate level, because I mean, excuse me, the graduate level.

Uh, because I love teaching. Not because I'm necessarily good at it, but it is just, you just get that feedback. The students are like sponges. They will just pour, they'll just soak it in, and participate. And you know, you get some classes that are not as much as others, but you think you're not reaching them ninja in the break or after class or before class.

They [00:45:00] come up with a thousand questions and, and all that. It's just, it's just been just a thrill. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Need a teaching certificate for high school? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Yes. That was kind of interesting, because I had a business degree, but I had a mentor, uh, a marketing professor. He, uh, he's the one that called me about a teaching position in south Arkansas.

And he said, um, you'll have to have a teaching certificate, but here's what we'll do. We'll get you a provisionary. And, uh, in the college that went to Southern artists, uh, university in Magnolia, they were so student oriented and still are, but they said we will, um, we'll get you the necessary hours to get certified.

And even this instructor, he w he, manuscripted a couple of courses for me in the marketing education department. He says, we'll get with the education department at Southern Arkansas university, and we will get you certified. And it took a couple of years, but I did to 

Mike Koelzer, Host: teach in the college. You probably even needed less, right.

You just maybe needed a college degree to teach. 

Joe Baker, MBA: No, I most, most, um, uh, colleges want you to have at least a master's gotcha. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: In the subject area, when you mentioned MBA, was that something you were able to complete? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Yes, I've coincidentally I've completed it in 99, which was the same year I started teaching.

Well, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Was that coincidental or did that open the door for you? Uh, 

Joe Baker, MBA: I think it opened the door for me. Uh, the year prior I was, I was working on the classes and I said, you know, I will have a degree now. I don't, they might have allowed me to teach without it. But, uh, I suspect not, you know, academia is, they liked those, those, uh, little, little letters past it, you know, and they call me Dr.

Biker. And I say, listen, I don't have a PhD. I'm like Howard Walowitz from the big bang theory. You only have a master's. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. I'm all for people being called doctors and so on. But I talked to my kids about that. They said, dad, if you were a doctor, Would you want to be called a doctor? I said, sure. During my day, but I said, I'm not so sure.

Let's say I'm a, let's say I'm a heart surgeon. I'm not so sure on a weekend when I'm watching football with my family that I want to be reminded of. Who I am because of school. In other words, let's say at the pharmacy I'm known as a business owner. I don't want someone to come up to me on a Sunday when I'm watching a game or something and say, Mr.

Business owner, it's like, well, yeah, but that's tomorrow morning, but I don't know. Right. Everybody's worked their tails off to get any kind of a doctorate degree. So I don't take anything away from that just because I'm not that I'm not bitter or anything. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Of course. And my students, you know, they, some of them, have a hard time.

I tell them I want them to make it, call me Joe, in that they just can't do that. I say, just call me Mr. Joe. Yes. Because I've never, even today, I still have the Peter Pan principal. My dad. I wish I had a dollar for every time. He says, when are you going to grow up? I said, dad, I hope I never grow up. That's why I see humor in everything.

And you know, that's why I like to tell funny stories. And, you know, even my mom who was on her deathbed in Shreveport, Louisiana in 2009, My sisters and I were standing around sitting around her and we were telling stories and there was so much laughter in the ICU unit. I think they thought we were nutty, but you know, that was just a part of it.

And, and, and I try to find humor and just about everything, it just makes me feel good. And hopefully it makes others feel good too. So my 

Mike Koelzer, Host: elder son, somewhere, they got this phrase that says, if you can't joke about everything, you can't joke about anything, but I don't know where the hell they got that from.

Now. My wife gets mad at me for overstepping some boundaries. I just called that. I don't know. I'm just quoting my son. He might've made it up. So tell me about our friends at your financial 

Joe Baker, MBA: pharmacist. Yes, they are. They have been greatly involved. As a matter of fact, Tim Holbrook was the catalyst. He, he approached me and about may of last year and said, Hey, if you thought about turning your bikers dirty dozen into a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: book, because Tim had had you in college 

Joe Baker, MBA: or no, no.

Tam is kind of interesting, Tim and your financial pharmacist. They're located well, he's located in Ohio and they came out with seven figure pharmacists. And I said, finally, I have a textbook I can use in classes designed for pharmacist. [00:50:00] And I said, uh, now I don't have to write a book. Yeah. So, so anyway, and I used it in class and, and started sending him some success stories.

And some of my students who got out one in particular, they paid off like $200, $12,000 in four years of student loans. And he and several of my students have been on his podcast first. And so last year, he said, Hey, have you thought about turning it into a book? I said, well, I don't know. Then the more I thought about it.

And I said, you know, a lot of former students have told me, yeah, Make my class into a book. And I said, well, I do, but I don't want to write just your same old finance book because they can be as boring as I can be. And I bring nothing new to the table. It's all about investing early and you know, the mutual funds, it's just your basic things, but I slowly.

I think funny and interesting stories from people. And I have some stories and I just wanted to package it away so that the younger generation can read it and say, this is, this is pretty neat. This is pretty neat. And that's what I was, I was going for. I wanted to be something different, something that they could say, you know, I was just reading it, I thought about the finances, and then it came up with all these stories in there.

So basically your financial farm. Pretty much bankrolled everything they have. Uh, they did, Tim has just spent so much time helping me with the editing process. Umm, feedback has been invaluable. You know, there are three Tim's over there, Tim baker, Timo brick and Tim church. And, but Tim Walberg is the one I've been dealing with and, and they have, um, uh, paid for the copy editing.

And my only cost is I've got a P three student that is helping on the promotions and he has just a Wiz and all this stuff and social media, and I'm having him, uh, uh, do something. We just did a skit for Halloween. So you'll have to check that out. Uh, my goal 

Mike Koelzer, Host: on this podcast, I, it really took some time to think it through.

And my goal ended up being, like I said about driving , I wanted to do something that was interesting. To me and entertaining to me. And some of the stories that come out of it, I suppose, are, are valuable. And, um, once in a while, someone will write to me and say, you know, I, I learned a lot from you and I'm like, well, you must have been listening to another podcast, but 

Joe Baker, MBA: you never know.

You never know who you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: read. Well, you don't know who you reach in. A lot of the things that are very common to me, like we talked about, you know, from my dad or from your dad and things like that, you don't even know the story has any value to it, but sometimes just mentioning one thing about whatever, you know, answering the phone a certain way or whatever, you know, you, you don't know what's going to hit some people.

And sometimes, sometimes it does. I got two books out here. And now, I'm not saying we're going to write a third book. I'm not saying we're going to write a third book, but a third book. I know. I know, but I just want to dig one more time. Not book-wise. I want to dig one at least one more time. What else do you think, if anything, do you have to offer that could maybe be some kind of a book.

So we talked about finance, we talked about, you know, networking. What else do you think you have? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, just off the top of the head, it would be my principle 13 giving back, uh, because you know, I don't know if you're watching the house MD, the old TV show. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. With the Australian guy, but has the U S access?

Joe Baker, MBA: Yes. He made a comment on several occasions that no one ever does anything for anybody else or gives away anything except for selfish reasons and not say, well, that may be true. It could be true, but why can't it be a win-win? Why can't I teach or give away, uh, some, some knowledge and help somebody else out.

It helps me, but it'll help them as well. And if you could focus more on giving away, uh, thanks. Uh, the nice thing about my principles, I end up with, uh, making you wealthy in your heart, body, and soul and, and really that's, that's what it's really about is to help other people and at least in my, my aspect of it, and it's, you know, a little bit about your background is, and it has almost evangelical feel to it because we're spreading the message of financial literacy.

You don't know who has. Uh, teach hold to, and, and, uh, you feel good about it? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We can use [00:55:00] any gifts that we have to maybe make things just a little bit smoother for people in order to give them maybe a little more security or something like that. And I wouldn't even know we're doing it, I suppose. Yeah. 

Joe Baker, MBA: And I want to make it clear.

I'm not promoting prosperity ministry either. You know, theology. I'm just talking about being blessed by having, uh, achieved some financial success and giving back. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: A lot of times it's just giving people a target of just even being organized or even knowing what the hell you're supposed to be doing. Do you find that pharmacists in particular, coming out of school might make unique mistakes that let's say.

I dunno, someone else coming out might make a marketer or someone who's, um, you know, and a chemical engineer or whatever. Did you feel pharmacists might make any in particular mistakes and, and maybe some of that's because of the nature of what kind of people maybe go into pharmacy? 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, one of the things that I have noticed through the years is, uh, they come out making six figures and more than.

Their parents ever dreamed about making and they have made some unwise choices. At the very beginning, I had a student last semester who said he was going to buy a Corvette, uh, as soon as he gets out of school. And I said, how much do you have in student loans? This was one on one. And he said 200,000. I said, why don't we just wait on that Corvette for a little bit and work on that, uh, student loans, because, uh, it's something called lifestyle creep where you feel like you deserve it.

You know, I worked my tail off for six, seven years and I deserved this well, that's fine. I'm not telling anybody they can't buy anything or are not doing anything. I just want everyone to know the opportunity costs for every economic decision they make. And it kind of drives me crazy sometimes when I point that out.

Uh, and, but to answer your question, I don't know that the only thing that would be different is they make more than any other. Graduated at that age, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: One thing I've always kind of thought about pharmacists to their credit is maybe it's because I work in a neighborhood that's not, not above middle class and my employees are middle-class and so on.

And I know in your book you talked about, you know, you don't want to show up to negotiate in a Cadillac, you know, and it always seemed like people who were, let's say physicians or attorneys had a little bit more keeping up with the Joneses to do. I have a theory on that as a business owner, that's kind of, because we all have w well not, we, I'm not going to put you in my category, but.

Pride. And we like to deep down, you like to maybe show your stature a little bit, but I've always thought that my stature is kind of in the pharmacy where I can drive by and say, that's my building. That's my store. That's what I'm known for. Therefore, I don't have to be known for my car. I don't have to be known for my watch and jewelry and things like that.

But I always had this idea that because attorneys and physicians, especially working in a hospital or in a big firm, don't have something that they can point to. You know, they can't say that's my hospital or that's my thing, they tend to point to other stuff that might have more, it might be more visual.

Because they don't have a building to point to. That's just a theory of mind. Now you can put that in your fourth book, if you want to, 

Joe Baker, MBA: I'll have a whole library in my house at Adams. I am amazed at how many people like on our street and, and several other streets that we live in a kind of a fluid area, how many that are 30, some years old.

And statistically speaking, these people don't make enough, uh, to have these houses and just, um, you know, I just wonder what is going on, but as far as the psychology of it, uh, that's, that's a possible, uh, but do pharmacists that work in hospitals do. Do they think the way the doctors 

Mike Koelzer, Host: do? Yeah, that's true.

I don't know. That's a good question. We'll have to look and see if they have diamonds on the soles of their shoes or something. So Joe, the book's coming out and 

Joe Baker, MBA: when can they, [01:00:00] they can actually pre-order right now. And if they order to go to Baker's dirty dozen.com, the website, it'll redirect you to your financial pharmacist.

The book is 1995. However, if you put in the coupon code baker, they get 15% off up until November the seventh. So it'll be 15% off of the 19 half as a pre-sale and then the card won't be charged until I think November the 19th. And then that's when the books are coming out mid, mid November. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, Golly, what a pleasure to meet you.

That was a lot of fun talking, and I'm glad that we got to go beyond the covers of the book and have some fun with this. And, uh, I'm, I'm encouraging everybody to pick up a copy of this because there's, um, there's more stories where these came from, even though your daughter has watered them 

Joe Baker, MBA: down or taken them out,

Mike Koelzer, Host: she wouldn't even water them. Those must have been horrendous stories that they just got yanked. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Yes. But they're so funny. So I know, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: oh, I had that with a podcast. Just this last week, there were two things that we said that didn't fit. It didn't come out. Right? Probably not being politically correct in them.

And they were funny and I had to cut them out and it just killed me to cut them. But I thought I better 

Joe Baker, MBA: not. We're just in a too sensitive society today. I know, I know. Oh, well what just like what life would be like? Uh, like if we didn't laugh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I study, I don't store. Who am I kidding? I don't study. I've heard it somewhere that, you know, the court gesture back in the day, you know, he was the only one that could tell the truth.

To the, to the king, you know, he was yelling, he could tell absolute truths and everybody would just get a hoot out of it because they knew that well, he was the only one allowed to do it. And so that's the thing about comedians now, too. It's like some of these guys have been on YouTube and then the minute they get signed up by some other, you know, Netflix or something like that, they're out there apologizing and watering it down and things like that.

And that's when the truth starts to get hidden, you know, when the comedians can't do that. So. I'll still be looking for those excerpts, Joe, from the healthcare book. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Well, you heard, you heard one story. That was it. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We're not going to let your daughter do that to the rest of us. She might make a better book, but we all deserve to hear Joe's stories.

Joe Baker, MBA: Uh, as Paul Harvey said, uh, the rest 

Mike Koelzer, Host: of the story we need that we're going to have to have a secret site, maybe in the dark lab. I don't think it's dark web material though. 

Joe Baker, MBA: Just a little fun. It would just, um, my vibe ability as a candidate for a political office would be in jeopardy, but that's about 

Mike Koelzer, Host: it.

I think to myself, some of the things I texted my friend, you know, I'll see something on mail online or, you know, or something, and I'll text them. I know it'll be off color, you know, but I'm like, well, there's one less data. Oh, well, thankfully I'm past a political career. Oh 

Joe Baker, MBA: yeah, no, the 30 years you could run for president.

Once I get old 

Mike Koelzer, Host: enough, I only need about another 20 years or so. And then I'll be prime for that. I dunno. I dunno how that, how we've gotten to that. 

Joe Baker, MBA: I don't even know how they, the stamina, you know, I mean, it's just, it's tough. I've worked in a campaign when I was in my twenties, a congressional campaign, and we went from sunup to sundown past that.

And it was grueling, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Joe. I don't know how the hell they do it. I typically only schedule one to no more than two of these recordings a week. And I only need one a week on average, but after two, I mean, what, uh, three hours a week of talking and these guys are going for, you know, 15 hours a day. I know. And they're 70, 80, you know?

I mean, it's, it's just crazy. It is. It's a certain gift they have for sure. Anybody doing that. So, all right, 

Joe Baker, MBA: Joe, we'll be watching. Hey, appreciate it. And thank you very much. I, it 

Mike Koelzer, Host: was a pleasure. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you.