Aug. 2, 2021

The Business of Being "The Public Health Pharmacist" | Christina Madison, PharmD, CEO

The Business of Being
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Christina Madison, PharmD, FCCP, AAHIVP is the founder and CEO of "The Public Health Pharmacist"

https://www.thepublichealthpharmacist.com/

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Transcript

Speech to text:

Christina Madison, PharmD: [00:00:00] Um,

Mike Koelzer, Host: you're listening to the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Kelzer,

Christina, for those who haven't come across you. Introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today. My 

Christina Madison, PharmD: name is Christina Madison and I have a consulting business called The Public Health Pharmacist today. Our focus is on what is the business of public health and how pharmacists, as well as other healthcare professionals really capitalize on the fact that there's this new found in.

Towards public health and not only talking about it from a business aspect, but also how that can create healthier and happier communities. When I go on 

Mike Koelzer, Host: your website, a third of the focus on it is on your representation in the media and so on. Is that because. Other pharmacists don't want to do it.

You're doing it for 

Christina Madison, PharmD: them, uh, everything nowadays, uh, as I'm sure you're aware, if it doesn't happen on social media, it doesn't actually happen. Right. And so I think it goes back to this whole thought process around personal branding and how that relates to you and your business. Right. And so, uh, obviously with the pandemic there.

You know, there wasn't a lot of information at the very beginning of the pandemic. And, uh, because of the fact that I had over a decade of experience in public health, even though I may not have been quote unquote, an expert in COVID or in SARS cov two, which is the virus that causes COVID-19, uh, because of the fact that I.

You know, all of this experience in HIV and tuberculosis. And I always tease and say, it's like HIV and tuberculosis had a baby and it's COVID-19 right. And so I could take a lot of that, you know, background knowledge and expertise and bring it. And the forefront when we were really doing damage control because the public health messaging just wasn't there when we were talking to the public about what to do and what to expect about this virus.

And so I had somebody contact me to ask me more information about what services, uh, you know, primary care offices should be providing. And then that led to me, um, getting asked to do a presentation and then. Is where I get paid. So that's where the business aspect comes in. I've been asked to do several continuing education programs around adolescent vaccinations and COVID vaccines and vaccine hesitancy.

So NPHA came to me, asked me if I would want to do what I did. I'm doing a three-part series for them. I'm actually doing the last of my three-part series with them tomorrow. So. It's kind of where the business aspects come in. And then also the possibility of me coming in and consulting for primary care clinics, pediatricians, offices, pharmacies that want to get into more of these public health, uh, related, uh, clinical services and understanding how they can get reimbursed for those services.

Mike Koelzer, Host: By being on the news and that that's your personal branding, correct. When you are helping people then other businesses in the realm of public health, are you trying to get them to get on there too? Or are you? I'm not going to let anybody get in my term. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: No, absolutely not. I actually offer a personal branding and media strategy.

That's what I was seeing. I think. Yes. I actually have one of those calls today, uh, for somebody that I met, um, Through a completely different avenue and saw me and said, Hey, you know, that's something that I'm, I'm interested in. I don't know exactly where to go with my personal brand. And so again, I offer those kinds of strategy meetings and it really comes down to the fact that in general, I think our profession does a really bad job of promoting itself.

Right. So we're not. The profession that's like raising our hands, saying, look at us, we're doing all these amazing things, right? Because we're kind of waiting for somebody else to toot your horn. And so that's really, my focus is that we need to do a better job of doing our own PR, right. So that we can be the ones crafting the message, because if we leave it to the media, they will show us in a light that maybe isn't as favorable.

Would it be fair 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to say. Every profession has those problems, or do you think that pharmacy in general or public health practitioners, do you think it's worse or a larger lack of getting in front of a camera or PR than other professions? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: So I think it's two things. So the first thing is yes, I do think that in general, you're not seeing a lot of just healthcare [00:05:00] professionals in general.

Raising their hand to go on camera, right. Unless it's somebody who is doing it to advocate for their book or their business, or they're selling something. Right. So if you really listen and you really look at those talking heads, you'll see a lot of times they're selling a book or they're selling something or they have a podcast or something.

Right. So they're usually some sort of product attached to that, but just your run of the mill, like a general practice provider. Pharmacy. You're not really seeing them on the news, or you're not really seeing them doing live streams or doing active marketing towards their businesses. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Would that be fair though, to say that's going to be across the board in any profession, somebody who's Hawking their book or their most recent whatever is going to be.

On the news more. So let me play devil's advocate. Why would anybody who doesn't have a book to press or, or doesn't have a business to promote? Why would anybody want to take the time to be on the news to be in the media? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Uh, I think it goes back to that thought process behind, uh, personal branding again.

Right. And so getting yourself out there, getting your name out there, getting you known as the expert, right? It solidifies you as the authority in whatever that discipline is. And I think in general, physician groups do a really good job of this, right? Because the AMA. Speaks in one consistent voice.

Right? So even if somebody, you know, goes outside of the norm or somebody, you know, ends up going to jail for something, right. You know, there's always bad actors within the physician community. They will rally behind and they will all speak with a consistent message, even if it's maybe not the best possible scenario.

Everybody falls in line, unfortunately with pharmacy because we have so many different groups, we often do not speak with one United voice. And that's really why I think it's important for us to start getting more comfortable with being on campus. And to represent ourselves as an expert in whatever discipline we're in, right?

Because the way that the media phrases things and the way that you know things are, are, um, I'm trying to think of a better way to say this. The way that the story is framed is oftentimes because we are not the ones coming in with talking. Right. But like most of these other professional groups there, they hire PR companies to come in and specifically say, these are the talking points.

And even if they ask you a question that's not related to those talking points, they give you a strategy for how to get back on message. How to come back to it. Always come back to the talking points. Always come back to the message. Always come back to what the bottom line is and what you're selling, because everything is in a sound bite.

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's the beauty. I love the podcast now, because for years at the pharmacy, you would have the newscasters coming in. First of all, they'd come in and they'd say, pick up a bottle and start counting tablets. They just 

Christina Madison, PharmD: want it for be 

Mike Koelzer, Host: real. Some of the, uh, the PR people would say don't ever let them have a picture of you counting tablets, because pharmacists are more than that.

And it's like, I get that, but what are you supposed to do? Have a picture of me just standing there, like talking to someone. I mean, it is kind of a nice visual and I understand we're not supposed to just be that focus, but yes, they want to come in and they pretty much tell you what the story is. That's the beauty of the podcast.

So, because you don't have to pick between. Uh, 15 second positive statement about pharmacy. You don't have to defend yourself in 15 seconds against pricing or something like that. There's a little bit more time, you know, for that up and down book, Christina. So you're saying that on the talk shows that people are trying to Hawk a book, or they're trying to sell something, but you're saying in general, Even if a pharmacist doesn't own a business, there's personal branding value.

Why would somebody though, who does not have their own business? Let's say, why do they want to do any personal brand? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: There is value. There is a lot of value in it. It's in order for you to continue to evolve and to potentially be discovered. Right. And so, uh, I'll just take, for instance, I have a colleague of mine she's very active on LinkedIn and she was, she was working in oncology and she was loving her job.

And then because of her presence on LinkedIn and the fact that she was doing podcasts and other things. She was actually [00:10:00] recruited by a startup, a tech startup in San Francisco. So those kinds of connections may not have been made. Had she not been more visible and more forward facing. Right. And had that authority that she had.

Is an expert in oncology. Right? So even though this tech startup was from a non-healthcare professional, it's in the oncology space. And so they were really looking for somebody that had that expertise that they could train on the tech side. Right. Because they have the tech stuff, they don't have. The pharmacy expertise.

Right. And so if you're looking at, you know, our profession, cause I really do feel like our profession is kind of at a touchstone right now. Right. Where we could either. You know, grow by leaps and bounds and get to the point where we actually start being compensated for our cognitive, um, knowledge, or we may be getting left behind because of the Amazon thing of our profession.

Right. Because all of these things are being digitized. You know, the more and more you start seeing, uh, you know, digital health kind of creeping in. And a lot of those tech startups are from non-healthcare professionals. So if we don't start evolving and changing, we're going to get left behind and the profession is going to change with that.

And we're potentially going to be stuck without evolving forward. And so I think that's also part of this as well, is that we have expertise. We have value. We know we can create value. So how do you get that messaging out there, regardless of whether or not you have a business or a book or you have a plot.

You need to establish yourself as the authority. And I think in general, pharmacists need to do a better job of talking about all of the benefits that we bring, not only to our patients, but to our communities at large. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You do so much good as a pharmacist, you forget what you're doing, you think it is just natural that anybody has these answers and kinds of things.

And COVID really changed that for me, I realized I was like one of the only people out there, even in my old fart age, I'm like, I think I'm kind of doing some good here. Absolutely. I felt like I was doing more than I had given myself. Credit for over the years. It's like, where would these people have gone without me here today?

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah. It goes back to that. Who do you like, know and trust and who is that? That's your pharmacist, right. And if you can't get access to your, you know, your primary care doc, right. Which a lot of these offices, we're only taking by appointment or. Or if they weren't having people in person they were doing only tele-health and you know, that that directly impacted people who didn't have broadband internet and didn't have access to a smartphone.

Um, and then also our elderly that were tech savvy. Right. And so where else were they going to go? They needed somewhere to go where they could get answers and feel that. You know, somebody was listening to them and I honestly feel like the community pharmacy, uh, they filled such a void that was there, especially during those beginning days of the pandemic.

But I also wanted to say that when we were looking at who we wanted to protect, right. So when we were talking about the lack of PPE. Pharmacy got left out of the conversation. And it was very sad to see that we had people who were unnecessarily infected because they weren't quite considered front line for many months before we sounded the alarms.

And when you went back and if you look at some of those, you know, bulletins and things that the, you know, the preparedness, um, you know, Declarations came out from HHS pharmacy wasn't included until like two or three iterations in. And it was so shocking to me because I'm like, who else is as forward facing as pharmacists?

Like there was no one else. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's what I was thinking. I was out there. People were like three feet from me and I was talking to them and I'm thinking there weren't a whole hell of a lot of other people out there, you know? Some grocery people. And once in a while, some first aid responders and things like that, but it's like, I'm generally kind of proud of myself, but I was kind of proud of myself for that three months there 

Christina Madison, PharmD: And see, that's what I liked to do.

I wanted your horn, I wanted to get your horn. I want to tell people how amazing you are. Right. So if you don't feel comfortable doing media, I'm fine with doing that on your behalf as well. So I feel like these are two things, right? Obviously this is a learned skill and this is something that I worked on to be able to feel confident in doing, but I'll tell you, they are always looking for a media story.

They want things that are newsworthy. And so, you know, this act of like, you know, cold [00:15:00] calling a station or finding out, you know, who the producer is. That's what I did. One of my very first stories that I did was an in-person interview. And I remember the date because it was the same day that who declared COVID.

An epidemic. They hadn't cleared it of a pandemic yet. It was January 29th, 2020. I had my first in-person interview and they asked me if I had done it before and I lied and said, I've been interviewed, but not at that grand of scale. Right. And I emailed the producer the night before and I told them exactly what questions that I was prepared to answer and gave them resources and references.

So when I showed up, they had all of those graphics up, they had everything ready and they were so like, they were so thrilled. Yeah. Where'd you come from, like, you know, but that's the thing. They want people who know what they're talking about. They want it to be authentic. They want you to give your expertise.

That's what they prefer. You know, they don't want to just scramble around for somebody who maybe has some infectious disease knowledge. They want experts. And that could be. Was that a local station? Yeah, it was my local ABC affiliate. Here's what else 

Mike Koelzer, Host: They want Christina, the local media. They also want local people because if they just wanted the best of the best, now it might be you, but it certainly wouldn't be me, but because they're local.

They latch onto you because they want a local phase. They want to say, this is Christina. She works here and this is Mike. He works there. They want that local flair. That's what local news is. And so you don't have to compare yourself to national celebrities. You just have to compare yourself to the next guy or gal, you know, that was on the news and it's not a high bar.

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah. And absolutely here's the thing. You can use this as a calling card. Like I, so when I first started, um, you know, uh, offering services to pediatrician offices and primary care offices, the first thing I did was I sent them a news clip of me talking about how I. Helping to get backseat out to smaller, you know, clinics and, and, uh, and, and local, um, community resources.

Right? And that's the thing. You could use it as a calling card. You can use it to establish yourself as an expert. There's so many different things that you can use it for, that have nothing to do with whether or not you're selling a book or an item or some sort of e-commerce right. Like you don't have to do that.

It really is not to mention the fact that. So much for us as a profession, right? Like I think anytime we can get somebody that is talking with authority and is a pharmacist and can, and can speak clearly. And in a way that is understandable to the public, that goes back to us as being trusted. Health care professionals and all that does is it just continues to elevate us as, again, someone you like, know and trust and somebody that is a community advocate and can do more than anyone.

Mike Koelzer, Host: When you're going down a highway and there's a bunch of people, rubbernecking for the accident or something like that, you're stopping because you've seen other people looking at something you don't even care what they're looking at yet. You're just saying other humans are interested in this. So I'm going to look.

And so talking about a calling card, if they see Christina was on news eight, talking to someone and they see their news eight camera in your face in this and that, the person. That you're going to see whether it's a doctor's office or something like that. They don't have to listen to what you have done to raise your status up.

All they have to know is that you were worthy of the news talking to you. Therefore you're worthy of me talking. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah, again, it goes back to that lending of credibility. Right. And we're already very forward-facing right. In general, if you are someone that is, you know, a staff pharmacist or your, you know, the, the pic, the pharmacist in charge at your local pharmacy, you have the same customers coming in all the time.

Right. So that trust and that community that you've built around your patient population. You know, that's extremely valuable, right? It's valuable to the patient, but it's also valuable to you as a professional, right? Because you've established yourself as being, um, an advocate for that community pharmacists in general, don't really.

They've been practicing public health for years. The fact that we are, uh, you know, actively talking about prevention, we're [00:20:00] helping patients in the self care aisle that is public health vaccinations. That is the single most successful public health intervention in the history of modern medicine. Even so.

So now as somebody who's definitely a public health nerd, when these vaccines, when they came out and said that they were over 90% effective, I mean, talk about mind blown. Like there's nothing like that. If you look at modern medicine, there's nothing that can say with that amount of certainty. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Every city in the country has a talk radio.

Program in the morning, probably I think at least one news radio kind of thing. Absolutely. Our local host says that they're on from like five until nine every morning. They have four interviews a day, times five, they've got 20 interviews a week that they have to do and that's not easy. And so for pharmacists that want to get on.

Morning show, what are they going to do? You 

Christina Madison, PharmD: can pitch your stories to their producers. Right. A lot of times they have all of their contact information on the show's website. Uh it's right there. I've done it. I just emailed the producer and I, you know, I put in, you know, exactly what the pitch was, what the statistics were at that time.

You know, it was kind of a rolling total where you could see like the ticker where you could see how many cases. Um, we're happening at a time. So I provided that and then I always put at the top the last update, you know, whatever date, um, and put my contact information and my bio and how they could find me on social media.

That's the other thing too. So Twitter. Uh, a lot of times reporters will put stuff on Twitter and they'll ask for people for interviews like, Hey, anybody out there could comment on, you know, such and such, or like I had a reporter last week that asked me, um, do you have any, any young people that are still on the fence about getting vaccinated that I can interview?

Because it was part of the story that they were having me do about the ACP, talking about the mild carditis that was associated with. So, yeah. Yeah. So like that, like sometimes they'll come and they'll ask you for expert commentary, but then they're like, Hey, do you have a patient or somebody I can interview?

And a lot of times they'll put those things on Twitter. Um, so like you could respond to something on Twitter, you know, that's where all the stations have a president, a very large presence on Twitter because it's considered to be a newspaper. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: The news people, local news people, they really love Twitter.

They love Twitter. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah. I did not have much of a presence on Twitter until I started doing media because that's where they have it. And if you, if you get tagged in a new story, like they'll tag you and then it gets retweeted and then it gets retweeted again. So, I mean, it could be, um, you know, depending on the story, like, I'll just give you for instance.

Summer, I did this story about these, uh, these people that were doing these secret raves in the desert that were, they're basically defying the governor's rules about, you know, not gathering in large groups. And that story that I did because the reporter interviewed me and she showed me the footage, like my reaction to this footage, like it went viral like, like six or seven stations picked it up.

It was crazy. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Stories their local story. It's not the days where they had hundreds and hundreds of likes on those, because there's so much on Twitter. I mean, you could actually pretty much carry on a personal conversation. I'm not talking through the DM, I'm talking right through straight Twitter. If you go on there some day, Personalities in the city that you said, all right, here's the health reporter.

I want to kind of butter them up a little bit. If you go on there and start responding to some of their stories, don't hit them with a right hook right away, you know, just say, oh, I appreciated that story. Or add the common here or do this. You'd be surprised at how quickly you get a relationship. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah. I mean, kindness goes a long way, you know, and, and sodas, flattery for that matter, flattery will get you anywhere.

Right. You know, I mean, I'm, I've fallen victim to it as well. You know, if somebody comes in, tells me, you know, Hey, I follow what you do. You're doing amazing things. It's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: nice to have someone tell me something like that. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Oh, what are you talking about? I feel like there may have been some emails between you and I fishing for 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that one, Christina.

All right. So I'm going to say that. More. So than you being a public health pharmacist, I'm going to do a play on words here. I'm going to say you're a public relations health pharmacist, because really the two go together. They really do without the public relations, you [00:25:00] can go out and do a lot of things, but on a larger scale, arguably maybe you're just one person.

Public relations is what we're doing now, but also getting more. People on board. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I think, you know, I teased and said this earlier, but I said, you know, if it didn't happen on social media, it didn't actually happen. But I feel like that's kind of the same thing when we talk about some of these really super innovative, you know, pharmacy models, right?

So like, if nobody's hearing about it. Is it actually doing the most good? Right. And so like, I'll just take, for instance, where I live. I live in Nevada and, um, you know, Mar my news market is pretty big because I live in Las Vegas, but somebody else. Who is to say in Colorado, right? Last year they, uh, passed legislation to allow pharmacists to provide HIV prevention.

Right. There was a lot of publicity around that. And I feel like, you know, that could have gone a long way. You know, if we had gotten more pharmacists, like, you know, in the media, in the news, talking about how that was going to impact their practice, how they were going to be able to now service their patients, that didn't have access to these services.

Right. So same thing here, Nevada just passed a contraceptive law for pharmacists, just passed HIV prevention law for pharmacists, and also just passed a law relating to, uh, collaborative practice agreements to make it easier for pharmacists to, to form collaborative practice agreements with pharmacists.

So of course I was talking about it cause it was a big deal when it. Through our legislature because our legislature only meets every two years and I was contacted by a local magazine and they asked me to write about it. I got contacted through LinkedIn because of all the stuff that I post on LinkedIn.

Mike Koelzer, Host: People say a personal brand, but truly that's what it is because I remember reading in books years ago and they talked about, I'm dating myself here. This is talking about like the yellow pages. Right. And so 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I remember the yellow. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So the phone book. So the reason why you want to have your name out there, and you want to have your, the constant stream of back in the day, advertising more than marketing is because when people finally come across your name somewhere and they need you, they'll be going down a list and they'll call you.

They don't even know subconsciously that you've been working on them, but you've been picking at them. And then finally they see. Your business name and they say, oh, I decide on that. And the way that you can ask people that. If you ask people, Hey, how did you hear about us? And you don't do it often in a pharmacy because there's just too many customers.

But if you say, how did you hear about us? How did you decide this? It's like, oh, I saw your ad on TV. And it's like, I'm thinking, no, you didn't. Because I didn't have an ad on TV. You don't even know how you found out about us. So it's the same thing with the personal branding, with your LinkedIn and Twitter.

And so on. Finally, when someone does need you for the local program, they're going to pick you over someone that they've never heard before. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah, I completely agree. Uh, you know, it's sort of the, uh, if you build it, they will come, right? Like if you're, you are putting yourself out there, um, even, even if that, that dream club.

Even if you haven't met them yet, you are projecting yourself in a manner that you are now going to be prepared when that dream client or that dream avatar, right. Business avatar comes to you or, or, or, uh, it passes by, right? Like you, like, obviously there's a lot of active marketing that goes on, but you have to make yourself.

More attractive. Right? And you need to build yourself when you're building that personal brand. You need to be building that personal brand towards whatever that dream client is. That's really what I've been doing for the last 18 months. Um, and you know, I'm, I'm still very hopeful that that dream client will come.

Um, I mean, I've had some amazing opportunities in the last, uh, last 18 months and it's been, it's been a journey. It's been a while. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What does that dream client look like? Describe that to 

Christina Madison, PharmD: me. So my dream client would be a health system so that they have more than one facility that I could come in and I could help them implement some of these public health practices and public health clinical services for multiple facilities.

And then in addition to that, help them to be able to make those services, revenue generator. And then on top of that, be able to train those pharmacists that are now doing those services in how to, uh, present themselves to the media and be able to go on and [00:30:00] talk about those specialties and talk about those services in order to really positively impact their communities.

Let's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: say that this organization has doctors and nurses and podiatrists and pharmacists and all that is your dream. Would it be more focused on the pharmacists, that division of this business? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I feel like it would be, um, just that the health care structure as a whole, I, I don't want to pigeon hole myself to just pharmacy because I think that it really is an interdisciplinary care approach.

And that's what makes these, you know, these services successful is because you have to work within that system. Right. Take for instance, HIV prevention. Right? So even, even once we've identified that somebody who's HIV negative is, is eligible for prep. Right? What happens if that person tests positive for.

You still have to get that person treated for that STD, right? So you need to be able to have those wraparound services where you can get the physician involved or a nurse practitioner or a PA the lab. Right. You have to have a relationship with the lab. These are all these wraparound services, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Christina, with that dream of yours.

And I liked that by the way. That's a good dream. Who is your competition? Of that dream right now. Let me name some competition. All right. One would be a PR firm. One would be just a manager of all this who thinks they're going to just do that. PR in this building on their own would be something a company doesn't have.

Any of that at all. One would be somebody exactly. Like you who's already doing it. I have no idea what those four things are. So what standing in the way of this dream position, would it be any of those or a combination of those? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: That's a great question. I don't think I've actually thought of it in that way, but it's, it's an excellent point.

I think the one thing that I would say is that I bring. Something very unique to the table and the fact that, you know, part of this, yes, you can hire a PR firm, right? You could hire a marketing firm, but those people who do marketing and PR and communications, they probably don't have a healthcare background.

So the fact that I have the healthcare background and the fact that now I am more well-versed in that PR marketing space, I think makes me, you know, very, uh, You know, very unique and I can bring that perspective that a lot of companies wouldn't be able to bring, because there's a difference. You know, if you, if you watch a news story where you can tell that they did not consult anybody who worked in healthcare, right?

Like you can tell versus when you see a news story, that's very. You know, uh, very purposefully done. And you can tell that they did their homework. There's a drastic difference. And I feel like that's the same thing when you're looking at some of these PR marketing pitches, right? So I'll, I'll give you a for instance, I'm not gonna tell you what organization it is cause I'm going to be nice.

I'm not going to tell you the organization. It was a pharmacy organization and they hired a PR firm. They hired the PR firm to do media training for. Select a group of people. So of course I got selected. So I go to this training and I'm looking at their talking points. And one of their talking points said that the vaccines were FDA approved.

Right? So in their language, it sounded better to say approved versus authorized, but it was factually inaccurate. Sure. And I brought that to their attention and they were like, "What's the difference?" Yeah. Right. But do you see where I'm going with this? Like literally the difference of one word. Yeah.

And them not being in healthcare and them not understanding like the approval process. They were just looking at it for, does the language sound good? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: These news companies, they don't really give a crap. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: The news cycle is so fast. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's so fast. They would rather just say like what average FDA, something they don't care, which is sad.

You think they would as the 

Christina Madison, PharmD: news. Well, and I think that's why we're in the predicament that we are now where we have all of these people who are only consuming their news through social media. We're in soundbites and they only listen to what somebody else told them or what their Facebook friend posted.

That's why, you know, you talk in soundbites and you talk in talking points because you, you keep saying it enough that like, they, they only have that to go on. Like, they're not going to take some [00:35:00] little snippet where you went off on a tangent, right. Because you stayed on message. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think what you're doing is spot on.

And here's why, because you're going to these places and saying, look, I can brand you and I can bring this forward and things like that. And they can look and see what you've done, but there's been enough places. Now, these marketing firms where they'll be talking about something and you'll go and look at them like their social or their.

PR a lot of times it's practically non-existent and it's like, yeah. I think part of that is like how a lot of times home repair people in the business, if you go to their house, It looks like crap inside, 

Christina Madison, PharmD: never has their hair done. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: They get home when the last thing they want to do is think about their own stuff inside their house.

So I can see maybe a PR firm not wanting to do that, but in your case, you're spot on or like, you want to be the leader and then you can say, well, look, here's what I'm going to do for your company. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, It goes back to like, you know, seeing is believing, right? Like, it'd be very difficult for me to say that I can come and coach and teach these things without actually having done them myself.

And so, you know, that's, that's kind of where I am at this point. I want to spread love. I want to share the knowledge that I've been able to obtain over the last, you know, decade and a half. Um, cause really that was my main focus. And, and again, going back to this concept that it's not just for the good of the company, but really the good of the community, right?

It's this, this concept of the health of the many versus the health of the one. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Are you going to have your own. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Oh, my goodness. That would be amazing. I have it, but I think that that would be, um, outstanding. I mean, if I could have a regular, you know, recurring segment on, uh, you know, a national broadcast where I could talk about a lot of these health issues, it'd be amazing.

You know, CNN, MSNBC, Fox. I would definitely do it, uh, because I feel like messaging is so important. You know, it doesn't have to be me. I don't need 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You are dreaming for me. Come on. This is your dream, 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Nan. You're really putting me on the spot here. Okay. Dream dream of dreams, right? Working for the white house.

Mike Koelzer, Host: The white house is where it's at for ya 

Christina Madison, PharmD: surgeon general, who doesn't want to be searching. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think you can be surgeon general without being a surgeon. Again. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I think you actually still have to be a physician, but there is a chief. There's a chief pharmacist. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Why would you have to be an attorney as the attorney general, but not as surgeon, as a surgeon general, 

Christina Madison, PharmD: the terminology is slightly misleading.

It's really the top doctor. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, I gotcha. That's right. You don't do surgery. He's the top doctor. That's right. So the surgeon general, he or she does not have to be a surgeon that makes sense. But there is a head pharmacist. There 

Christina Madison, PharmD: is, there's a chief pharmacist, just like there's a chief dentist. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When you say you're the chief pharmacist, that's not the chief for the white house.

This is a national chief pharmacist. I never heard of that before. Why not? I 

Christina Madison, PharmD: don't know. Probably because we don't talk that much about the governmental structure. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Have you heard of it before, besides recently? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Oh no, of course. Yeah, because I worked in public health. How long 

Mike Koelzer, Host: have you been in public? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Uh, over a decade and a half, I graduated from pharmacy school in 2004.

Mike Koelzer, Host: When you were 

Christina Madison, PharmD: nine and you're cute. No, I should never ask a lady her age, but I'm, I was definitely old enough. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So you were in the pharmacy, but where was the public health. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: So I have the faculty appointment and my faculty job when I first took my faculty job, uh, there were two different practice sites that I could potentially go into.

Right. So the academic way is academic. Faculty position typically works for what we call practice faculty. So I'm an associate professor of pharmacy practice. Uh, they will have you, uh, in a practice site. So some people that's hospital, some people that's community pharmacy, some people that's like compounding, uh, there's all different places that you can, you know, be in and practice.

Right. So right now I practice in a primary care clinic. It's a family medicine clinic, but before. I worked in the public health department. So I was embedded full-time as the pharmacist for the county health department for a decade, because you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: were faculty. Then they came and said, [00:40:00] what faculty member is in this position.

And then they said, let's take you out here. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: So I interviewed what they did was they actually approached the college, the health department. Approached the college of pharmacy and said, Hey, would you guys be willing to have a faculty member here? And at the time they didn't have anyone. Um, and then I applied and when I applied, there were two different positions that were available.

One was for our county hospital, uh, that takes a lot of indigent care and I'd actually done a lot of my training there. And so it would have been an easy fit. And then the health department, which would have been. Bare bones, nothing. They'd never had a pharmacist before. The only pharmacist that they had any interaction with, with somebody who likes repackaged pills for them and drops things off and never talks to them.

Um, and they said you would have to build this from scratch. And so I interviewed, and, uh, by the time I went in, um, they had decided the county hospital had decided that they wanted to go with the current right. And then the only position that was available was the health department. And so they told me, you know, if for some reason this doesn't work out, it's not what you wanted.

Uh, then you know, we can, we can change, you know, let's give it some time. Right. They, they basically set up, it doesn't work out. We can always move you to a different practice site because I'm a hundred percent funded. Through the university. So it's a barter system. They get a free pharmacist and then the school gets a location for their students to get clinical knowledge and to get clinical experience.

Where's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: your physical job? Is it at the health department? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: So my physical job right now is actually in a family medicine clinic. So I left the health department after I had my second child because they really wanted it. They wanted me to be there five days a week and I, and that was not feasible. But you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: were in that physical health department building.

What did you do 

Christina Madison, PharmD: all week? Oh my goodness. So many things. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I know you are busy as hell. I'm not trying to justify your wage. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I'm just wondering. No, no, no. Yeah, no. So, uh, so it was all communicable disease management, right? So if you think about, if you think about what public health really does, it's all about.

Controlling the spread of communicable diseases. So one day a week I had tuberculosis. So I had a pharmacist-led tuberculosis clinic. So I did LTPI for immigrants and refugees. One day a week, I was in immunizations and I did a pediatric vaccination administration and travel medicine. One day a week, I was in family planning one day a week.

I was. And disaster preparedness. So I was, uh, the point of contact. I was the second point of contact for our strategic national stockpile. And then one day a week, I was in our sexual health clinic, seeing STD and HIV patients. All 

Mike Koelzer, Host: These people came to you. You didn't go out into the communities, but I imagine that your place wasn't in a high rise in New York, you were in the community already.

Christina Madison, PharmD: Absolutely. Yeah. So we had several locations at one point, actually we had a health department location. In the airport, which was actually really cool. Uh, so we did travel medicine out of the airport clinic. Unfortunately it closed because we had some funding issues. Um, we had another one that was, uh, out in like north Las Vegas.

We had another one out in east Las Vegas, very indigent, uh, you know, high, Hispanic population, um, large homeless population. And so I just went where. Where the people were. It was so fun. I really, I learned so much from working in the health department and just how much is done behind the scenes.

Right? So like, I always say that public health, excuse me, public health works best when you don't know we exist. Right. Because if you knew that we were here, that would mean something went wrong. Right. Like, that means that there's a health scare because you know, there's a contaminated food scare, there's issues with the water supply.

Uh, there was an earthquake, there was a, you know, uh, anthrax, like I used to do these disaster preparedness drills where, uh, you know, we would prepare for, you know, things like smallpox and all these like deadly toxins because we, you know, we live in Vegas and we're, you know, uh, Stream, you know, so like that's the kind of stuff we worked on and I helped develop their policies and procedures.

I saw dirt, I did direct patient care. It was amazing. That's a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: lot of experience 

Christina Madison, PharmD: and I'd love to be able to import that to others. Right. Like I really truly feel like every health department in the country should have their own pharmacists, at least one, if not more. Right. Because so much of this is medication.

Um, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's interesting with the news. If you don't hear about it, it's good. You know, that means it's under control. However, if it's really bad, you also don't hear about [00:45:00] it Diabetes, heart disease, 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah population health. Yeah, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: drug overdoses. It's funny. It's like a curve because it's like, all right, that stuff doesn't get much attention because it's so rampant.

Then you have things like shark attacks and God forbid the building collapsed and things like that because it happens so infrequently. So it's like, it's good when it's in the news, because that means it's not that frequent. Unlike heart disease and diabetes and all that, which is killing them millions of people.

But then, like you're saying, I understand that you don't want your stuff to be in the news because that means that it's under control. All right. So Christina, With your experience and your pazazz and your comfort in front of a camera and all that kind of stuff. This is such a great time to be alive. I tell my kids, this is the first time that you or I, we don't have to wait.

We talked about those news people earlier, you know, the morning team and getting ourselves in front of people and stuff like that. Those days really are gone, though, because with what we're doing, With a microphone and a pair of headphones, look at what we can do and look at what we can do socially. It's hard because there's a lot of competition, more so than ever, but you're on a pathway here.

Good 

Christina Madison, PharmD: for you. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that again. This was, uh, you know, it goes back to those like gifts of COVID right. Stuff that you didn't think that was going to be, uh, an opportunity that presented itself, any kind of. You know, I just jumped on it and, and it's something I really enjoy. And I'll tell you, um, you know, I think it really comes across, you know, especially when you're working with some of these reporters that genuinely have an interest in the topic that they're covering.

Um, I do really feel that. When you have that enthusiasm and you, you know, go out of your way to make sure that they have accurate and factual information, making sure that they have appropriate resources, right. It shows when they go in and they edit their stories. It really does. Now 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I understand why you know about the pharmacy Zara or whatever the hell you call them.

What was it? The 

Christina Madison, PharmD: white house guy, pharmacists, you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: know him or her through your. Public health job. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yes. Cause there's a whole US public health Corps. Maybe 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I've been living under a rock, but the chief pharmacist's, what do they do? I imagine they don't do stuff that individual pharmacists like rules and things like that.

It's more a public health, chief pharmacist. They 

Christina Madison, PharmD: are over the us public health Corps. Right. Because. Pharmacists that work within the public health core. And then there are pharmacists that work within the federal corrections. Oh, well, so they're in charge of those pharmacists. They're in 

Mike Koelzer, Host: charge of public pharmacists more.

Christina Madison, PharmD: There's also pharmacists that work for the FDA and for the CDC as well. There's public health fellows that happen to also be pharmacists as well as that there are. Scientists that are working for FDA and do drug development and, and, uh, you know, deal with these outbreaks and get these technical bulletins.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Your dream, is it to be that chief pharmacist or is it to just walk around the white house and say, I don't really have a job. I'd just like to boss people around.

Christina Madison, PharmD: No, I think my dream, my dream would be able to be that representative for the profession. The chief pharmacist, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right. I'm going to vote for it. How do you get there? What do you do? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I think you have to apply. Um, and I, some of the times they're enlisted too. So some of them are through like the military system, so that doesn't sound fair.

There's enlisted. And then their civilian positions, I think it can be a civilian, but a lot of times. It comes from the, um, the military side. Who's the current chief 

Mike Koelzer, Host: pharmacist. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: We have a new administration. So actually I'm not sure. I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: asked you that on purpose, who it was, and I'm glad you said you didn't know, you know why?

Because if you really want to go and just be the chief pharmacist that's okay. But let me ask you this. Isn't there some fun going and being a pharmacy leader, but also having like. Camera's you know, being on maybe TV on as a talk show and things like that. And what I'm saying is that there's an easy way around this, just by the nature of who you are, rather than saying you have to go through the funnel of chief pharmacist.

So is it being a chief pharmacist or is it like Christina is going to join us on the today show today? 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Oh, that would be amazing. Absolutely. Is that better than being a chief pharmacist? I don't know if I would say it's better than, but I would, I would jump at that opportunity and I think it goes back to sort of two things.

[00:50:00] Right? So personal branding. And when you look at personal branding, it's like you as the business versus you as a public figure. And I think that when I first started my consulting business, I was in the consulting business, right. Because I didn't have me as the brand, but now in the past 18 months, I've probably been in over a hundred on-air appearances.

I can separate the business from me as the public. So like the other day I got invited to go to, uh, we have a w NBA team here in Las Vegas. And so I actually am a regular guest on a sports radio show here in town. Yeah, very cool. Um, it's called the GC Martin show. Uh, and, um, so he asked me to come to the WNBL game and it was great because I am a public figure, right?

I could go and sit in the press box because me as the public figure has that. Right versus me as the business. I'm not there to survey to see if the w MBA is doing things properly during COVID. It was me being there, enjoying the event and seeing all of the different safety things that they had, but that wasn't the.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Some people have gone a certain route and then they're not even that route anymore. So I can see Dr. Phil going and not being invited to this w NBA because he is a psychiatrist, but just being there because he's Dr. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Phil is a public figure, but 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you weren't invited yet as a public figure yet. Were you, was it tied into your.

Christina Madison, PharmD: Yeah. So when I go onto the show, um, obviously I talk about public health things, but yeah, now it's because of me as the public figure, just as a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: public figure, that'll never happen to me. They need attractive young women like yourself. They don't need a bunch of old 

Christina Madison, PharmD: farts. You're very, kind of, not as young as I used to be, who would have thought that this would have happened to me.

Mike Koelzer, Host: COVID really put a stamp on you, right? I mean, if COVID, didn't come along and not that we're trying to hope for COVID, but the Lord works how the Lord works, but if COVID didn't come along, you might have a harder time stamping yourself. COVID helped in a way, right? Absolutely. The need of the public 

Christina Madison, PharmD: health.

A hundred percent. I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, at the time, um, you know, I, I started my consulting business in November of 2019 and then pandemic kit in, you know, for all intents and purposes, you know, February, March. Yeah. Uh, you know, I was being, you know, looking at keynote addresses and, you know, like the professional speaking side of it, and obviously coming in, talking about health.

But COVID really solidified me as that expert. Right. Because they, because I was one of the only people raising their hand when it came to coming, you know, coming and talking about it and it, and it was lucky that I had actually been tracking it. So if you go back and look at my social media, you could go back and look and see that I had actually been tracking this, you know, new virus even before they had a name for it.

And so when they contacted me, that was one of the first things that they did was they looked at my social media and they're like, oh yeah, this person's been talking about this. So again, going back to that presence, having that forward facing presence and really being able to brand yourself, I think it really is important, even if it's just you as your.

Right. So like Mike being. Right. Regardless of you as the business or you as the podcast, you as just Mike is now somebody who I look at as being an authority. And when I think about the business of pharmacy and when I think about business, I think of you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: brother. I do not choke. No, thank you. That's the goal.

There's this guy I listened to quite a bit online. But basically he said that there's two guys in high school. There's a popular guy and there's a guy whose parents are also gone. And so he could have the parties on the weekend. And that's what I am now. I'm just the guy where the party can come to.

I hosted the party. You have a current podcast 

Christina Madison, PharmD: Now I do, yes. It's called the public health pharmacist podcast and started releasing episodes, uh, at the beginning of this year. So, uh, one of my very first episodes, which was. Amazing. When I think about it, when I look back, uh, cause I can't even believe that she said yes when I asked her with Sandra Lele.

So she was the incoming president of ADHA and I, and she's super public health focused and has done so much work with like indigenous. Uh, migrant workers. She lives right there on the border of Arizona and Mexico. Just an amazing, amazing interview. I I've, I've been so fortunate and I'll tell you as an, as another, uh, [00:55:00] podcast host, a lot of times you want to interview people that you are truly interested in and want to be able to help, you know, get their, their message and their word out.

And I've just been so grateful. So the people that I've had an opportunity to interview, I wish I had more time to dedicate to my podcasts because there's so many people I'd love to interview. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's a really cool time right now because people can do things on their own. I couldn't do this 15 years ago, or you couldn't be in social media and things like that.

And all of this just keeps changing. I think the key to it all is really to follow where the eyes are because as soon as you think you've got something wrapped up, whether a podcast or a social. Network site or some TV show or something like that the next week, you know, it all changes. And so the big thing is just really being open to that change.

And if you look at all the stuff you've done and then been open to COVID to growth that you could have with that. 

Christina Madison, PharmD: I don't turn down anything that I feel like would be beneficial to the greater good. Right. And, and again, kind of going back to that health of the many versus the health of the one. And I, I really do truly believe that, you know, when you lead with that, you know, heart of service and service to others, you, you really can't go wrong.

Mike Koelzer, Host: That tide lifts us all up. And so thanks for what you're doing for the profession. I 

Christina Madison, PharmD: appreciate that. Thanks. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm going to tune into the today show. So let me know 

Christina Madison, PharmD: when you're on. I definitely. Well, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. Thanks Christina. Talk again.

Christina Madison, PharmD: Um, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You've been listening to the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Kelzer. Please subscribe for all future episodes.