Strength in Numbers | Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RPhAlly Founder

Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and may contain errors or inaccuracies.

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Shawn for those who haven't come across you online, introduce yourself to the listeners and tell our listeners why we're talking. Hi, Mike, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: thank you so much for having me on my name is Shawn . I am a pharmacist and I launched a platform back in August called RPhAlly. Um, think of it as a central hub for all things, pharmacy.

Um, but the reason why we're talking tonight is because of the most recent launch of the prescriber review, where pharmacists can provide their professional opinion. On prescribers providers. So then when other pharmacists are verifying prescriptions that do not know them, they will have at least a data point to kind of help them out in those situations to make really more informed decisions, to better take care of their patients.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Very cool. Bjorndal That's a cool last name. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: It's Viking. My heritage comes from Norway. I like to say Viking Cause like you said, it's cool . It sounds cooler. It's a lot cooler, plus I'm from Minnesota. So I am a Vikings fan. So tragically. Yes. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I always think that my relatives are crazy that have gone to school.

Michigan tech, which is up on the top of Michigan. But then I forget that there's like a whole country way up there And Minnesota is the same. Yeah, 

thing 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: no, I, I haven't lived there since 2008, so I've probably lost that thick blood or hair, as you would say, you know, I'm lucky I'm in California, wearing a sweat sweatshirt when.

It's 65 degrees out. So 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is that a Christmas sweatshirt? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Yes. I just got this for Christmas, from my wife. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's very nice. My wife and I said that we weren't going to get presents this year for each other. So I was stuck by that, but she always fills up Our stockings, so that lets her buy a little gift. And she bought me some really cool soap.

I love soap, you know, like the man's soap, you know, it's like a brick, it's like a square and it smells like good men smell, you know? And, I thought that was really cool. But then I was at work today and I said, yeah, we weren't buying any presents But my wife bought me a bar of soap. And when I actually said that, it kind of sounded not real good.

I 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: don't read into that one so much, Mike, come on. I'm sure you smell fine. I'm sure you sour 

Mike Koelzer, Host: enough. I guess so I guess so, Sean. All right. So the main gateway to your product is going to be an app. People are dealing with it on their phones and things like that, right? Yes. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Web-based or app. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, there, you can log in from, from your computer or you can pick up your phone with the app and you can have a better response in this, through the app if you're using your phone.

Um, but yeah, it's a web based app. You 

Mike Koelzer, Host: worked for some chains, a few of them for four years. I think you were at one of them. And then a couple years at some of the other ones, what are the rules on phones? As a chain employee. Is it like a non-issue or? Well, it's 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: been four years since I've been in one of those roles at a chain.

So I'm not, I can't say that now, but, um, I don't know a pharmacist that doesn't have their phone on them. I think probably. Pharmacists can get away with their phones. I, you know, there's probably stricter rules, which is probably unfair for technicians. I think a lot of it comes down to probably the pharmacy manager there or the pharmacist in charge, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, besides workers, there's things like emergency rooms where you would feel like you.

We're going to get sent to prison. If you were in an emergency room with your child who broke their leg and they saw your phone, you know, and he used to say no phones, cause you're going to throw off all the heart monitors and you're going to mess up the airplanes flying overhead and things like that. But I think everywhere, everywhere in the hospitals, I think that they've kind of opened that up more.

They realize that phones and things do a lot of good and. More so than the potential problems that they thought 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: of. Probably not that big of a concern. If they're not checking everybody's phones to make sure they're off 

Mike Koelzer, Host: And our kids' school, they're not supposed to carry phones now. That's because they are distracted.

Yeah. And then they do anyway. But when we were kids, we just couldn't have bubble gum, you know, cause then you'd put it underneath your seat or something like that, Sean. All right. So give our listeners. Walk them through like a scenario with our pH ally, walk them through a scenario of what they're going to use it for.

And especially as you were talking, and I think I've heard you say before that this was almost your main goal was to get the opinions of doctors and things like that. What would that storyline be? It's going to 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: be. Mike is a floater pharmacist. No, one's going to 

hire 

Mike Koelzer, Host: me as a floater pharmacist. So you better pick someone else.

I'll go along with it. [00:05:00] Just for the sake of the story. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Mike has a floater pharmacist who wakes up every morning, you know, wanting something better, right? So he picks up, you know, has his coffee pulled out the RPH LA app starts reading the reading, like the live feed, checking up on, see what's going on. What's going on?

As far as the industry and what people are posting. It goes to the job section, checks that out, says, okay, I need to find myself a new job. This floating gig is not doing it for me. So we checked the job postings. I'm going to be tailored more towards pharmacists. So you want to get out of retail. So you start looking into informatics or something.

Along those lines. So we already had that categorized for you, the jobs that are available there. You're also going to go check out the informatics group because that's where you need to know how to get into informatics? And so. You're like, shoot, I got to get to work. So you go to work. First grip you checked is, you know, an oxycodone 30, um, written from the doctor down the street, but you're an hour away from home.

You've never filled for this doctor before. So you pull out the RPH ally app, you pull, pull up the prescribed review, you type in the doctor's name. He pulls up and you see six or seven pharmacists gave him a four-star rating. They know this doctor, they have a good relationship with him. He's very responsive.

Um, you know, so you feel better because that office is closed. You can't. If, you know, this patient has a, you know, legitimate doctor-patient relationship and you've never, you don't know the prescribers habits, but you know, that. A handful of your colleagues gave him a good rating that they're comfortable dispensing prescriptions issued by him.

So you're going to say, instead of taking that patient and turning them away and saying, I'm sorry, there's something wrong with this prescription. Um, you know, come back tomorrow when the doctor's office is open, you can, you can say, okay, I, I feel good about this. You know, you run the DURs and you know, you get the prescription, check the PDMP, everything is fine.

You now have a data point for the doctor. You're like, okay, Here you go. I'm going to dispense this medication to a patient. I've never seen a doctor. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Dispense for that's interesting because sometimes you can't tell by just looking in the computer to see if the doctor's common or not, because sometimes the doctor might be common or popular, let's say in the computer system, but you have no idea if everybody has these bad thoughts about him, but nobody has done something about it.

Or if he's an a-hole. That whenever you call their office, they kind of threaten you about, you know, you better fill it or this or that. So the numbers, did you hear my dog very much during this? No. So a lot of times the numbers in the computer don't tell you, you want to have the opinion of, of local people.

So that's really 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: cool. There's really no other way to get any information like that. I mean, there's, if you look at, you know, there will never be a PDMP for doctors because number one, What would you even do with that information? Right? Like, I mean, if there's a pain specialist and that's all, they do a lot of pain medications.

So I mean, how do you look at that and say, well, he does a lot of pain meds. I'm not going to dispense this. Or, you know, like, so it's not like, you know, it's not the same as at, it's not an apples to apples. Like you would have PDMP for patients. And it's opioids now, what's next? I mean, there's possibly a Benz, a wave coming that can be just as bad and benzos could be even harder to get off opioids.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You look at news that came last week about Walmart pharmacies getting sued because of this doctor stuff. And it's like, I don't know. A long time in community pharmacy, and I've never really stopped the doctor. I've stopped patients when they're going to a number of different doctors, but I've never just called up a doctor and said, you tipped some arbitrary scale and I'm not going to fill in for you anymore.

I don't want to. Walmart off the hook. Cause I have no idea what the story was, but golly, it seems like a hard job for the pharmacist. And we've got a lot of people breathing down the neck of the chain, pharmacists. I don't know if it's to fill or not to fill, but I suppose you could look at someone like me and say, well, I've got.

Stuff, breathing down the neck too, of potential patient loss or getting raided by the DEA and personally having handcuffs put on me and that kind of stuff. But all in all, I think I have less pressure than a chain pharmacist does and making a personal decision like that. It almost seems like the chain would have.

More guidance and maybe they were supposed to, maybe that's what they didn't do. I have no idea about the suit. It's gonna be an 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: interesting one to see the details come out that fall in that pretty heavy, just because, especially with the tool that I built. I mean, has there [00:10:00] ever been a time where you didn't fill a prescription because you knew that the Dr.

Maybe. Not writing legitimate 

Mike Koelzer, Host: prescriptions I'd stopped for that. You know, or if they said there were stolen blanks, or if they said that the doctor no longer had a DEA license or something like that, but I could really see using your tool because all I've got to go on now, as the doctor still has his license, you know, he's licensed to do it.

The prescriptions were legal, he saw the patient. If the patient's not using it. Too much. I mean, you have all these inklings of what you should maybe do, and certainly if it's not legit, you don't do it. But if it's legit, you have all these inklings, but it sure would be nice to have, instead of just my own inklings, it would be nice to have the thoughts of.

A hundred other pharmacists in the area say, you know, we had these inklings and most of us just called them and said, we weren't doing it. Blah, blah, blah. Even that I think would give me more comfort to know that 10 other pharmacists have called the office and just said, we're not doing this. It's like, yeah, well, I'm going to do that too.

Then it's more of like 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: the strength in numbers, like, like the community crowds. I mean, it's so simple. It's almost kind of one of those things where it's like, well, um, it's not, you know, mind blowing technology, right. It's just a simple idea. Um, I'm more of a people's guy anyways, you know, I do better working with, with, with people and, uh, you know, it just kind of tapping into that, tapping into that.

That, that personal connection, that human experience in the form of a review, right? I mean, you take out all the negativity and just keep it straight to yes, no type of thing. You know, three and four is good. One and two is like, I wouldn't, I don't feel. Right. I have concerns, you know, if you give it like a, that's how we built it, it was 1, 2, 3, and four solvers.

Um, you know, the one and two would be detractors. That's Ford being promoters. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When I read that earlier, I'm glad you didn't have five stars because you don't want anybody picking three because it's like, what the hell does that do? Exactly. That everybody just picked a three, you know, so it's good.

You just did one 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: through. Yeah. And that was, you know, I played, I mean, honestly, Mike, it was. You know, we dialed back, um, from the original design, just because I had it way more way too complicated. Um, and, and it finally came, you know, just like you said, either do or you don't, you know, you are, you're either comfortable or you're.

So, but you still need more than just a thumbs up thumbs down type of review because you know, when you start adding these together, a good doctor will fall in between a three and a four as a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: user going to just give a rating or are there not that there should be, because I can understand that some of this is for simplicity sake and so on.

Are there any different categories in, is there a comment section? What went through your head when deciding that? And again, I'm not implying there should be because it's, it's a mixture of. Simpleness versus how much information is going to be helpful. You 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: know, really, I, I want to protect the pharmacist at the end of the day.

So that's why they're anonymous. And we took out the comment section. I mean, we could always plug the comments back in based on feedback. Um, and we could still do it anonymously, but it was just like you said, for simplicity's sake, we started with just, just to view ourselves or the stars themselves, the rating, the rating score.

Does 

Mike Koelzer, Host: California have the, do they have with the pharmacist's discretion? Do they have like coding, cough, syrups, a pharmacist 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: can fill, honestly, I've never dispensed that in my entire life. I've never had anyone even asked to come up and just know dispense that. So I can't speak to that, but they have it, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: They have it.

Yeah. And that's bologna. I remember a guy got arrested in grand rapids years ago. I mean, this is 30 years ago because he gave too much of this stuff out and it's like, they do that, but they don't, you know, they don't really get any guidance. But then they want to clamp down on it. It seems like a screwy thing.

I 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: I mean, that's kind of how I feel about the corresponding responsibility piece too. You have this legislation that says the pharmacists are there the equal corresponding responsibility as to the prescriber. Right. And then you also have, you know, the boards of pharmacies, you know, you still have to take care of the patients.

So you can't inhibit or you can't block a patient from receiving the medication. Then you're in this predicament where. Don't feel comfortable filling this prescription. You know, you've never dispensed prescription issues, but by this doctor it's like, okay, you call the office and it's. Kind of shady, the staff answers unprofessionally, and doesn't really give you the information you are really looking for, or, you know, they won't pass it over to the prescriber, you know, it's like, so even if you take this information down and right.

Yup. Yup. I mean, that's, you've talked [00:15:00] to, if you talk to an inspector, just write down that you spoke to Mike at the office and yep. It's for this patient. I mean, that's not going to stand in court, if that is. In the legitimate prescription, pharmacies are calling doctor's offices every day. And it's like, you know, sometimes we are a nuisance because pharmacists like to live in the black and white, their whole world is in gray, but we'd like to get it as black and white as we can.

You 

Mike Koelzer, Host: said that term has corresponding corresponding as in, they both have the responsibility. Yeah. That's not fair to pharmacists. Here's what I think, Sean, I think that the AMA. Has put us in this position. Why not? Why not take some of the burden off of them and give it to somebody who will take some of it?

I don't know. How much did you have to research about things? RPH ally might say about a doctor. Like let's say someone says something and I know that that whole policy 30, 32, or what the hell is that number? Anyway, it's saying that basically the phone is. Editorial. It's more like a vehicle for other people's thoughts.

So they're not your thoughts. You're just a conglomerate of, of gaining other people's thoughts. Do you know how far something could go or what kind of trouble could you get into? And I don't want you to invite trouble by someone listening to this and saying, oh yeah, let's get Sean in trouble for that.

Do you know where that would go? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Yeah, no, I have a very good friend and kind of mentor. That's a JD pharmacist, you know, and I talked to him at length about this, you know, and at the end of the day, you know, there's not a lot there. Like you said, it's, it's, it's not our PHL, his opinion, these ratings are not the opinion.

It's just the vehicle. We have the reporting to really have our defense with. Claims that this tool is inhibiting a particularly prescribed patient from getting their meds. Right. I mean, it all comes back to the audit trail. When was it checked? Um, you know, cause we still have to track that it is anonymous, but we can track when, when.

Sees it, because all of the data comes from pharmacists having that at the station, that they're gonna be truthful in providing us with their responses because you know, there's also, we put a survey in there. Let's see I'm looking at my Kelzer and. I don't know him, you know, he's a prescriber and he's an 

Mike Koelzer, Host: asshole.

He's

let me just beat you to the punch. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: So you check on it. But we have a survey that pops up that asks, you know, like it asks some questions for feedback, right. So we want to know, did the review help you dispense the meds? Did you have to ask or did you have to pause and ask for further clarification?

Or were you just reviewing the doctor? I mean, I don't have the list on me right now, but, but, it's important that we capture that feedback from the pharmacist to show how the tool is helping with patients and outcomes. And also from a defensive position saying, you know, we have this data, this doctor wasn't even rated, or we only had five pharmacists check the rating.

Like how are we inhibiting any patients from getting medications rent issued by this, by this provider? So going back to the original question. I've had many conversations and conversations at length with very intelligent, smarter people than myself that are in the law. And you know, and there's already a lot of reviews out there already, you know?

So it's not like this as anything brand new, right. This is just more. Focus strictly for pharmacist privilege only the pharmacists to utilize this access to this. So it's not really, that is a fear, but it's not something that I lose sleep over at night. What's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: your closest competition? Is there any competition with a pharmacist only reviewing physicians?

I'm 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: not aware of one. I'm not either. No. I mean, it's kind of one of those things where we would be aware of 

it, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right. Just a Google search would make you aware of it. I did a 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: a lot of research before I even took the plunge and, and, uh, talk to my wife and, uh, you know, took out the savings for everything.

Right. Like, and, uh, kind of the same idea I had for just the overall RPA platform. Um, just to kind of better connect the pharmacy nation. Right. It really is. No, I struggled and there's going to be a lot of, you know, there's 315 to 350,000 pharmacists out there. Right. And you know, how many are really savvy on LinkedIn?

Not that many, right? There's a lot of people that are, like I said earlier , not gaining some bits and pieces of knowledge that they could just to be better plugged into the profession. And it's like, we kind of need that in our own space. It's unique. It's niche enough to wear. It's [00:20:00] a valid product.

It just hasn't gotten there yet. We're just still climbing, I guess, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: LinkedIn, first of all, I've got a group that I actually started back in 2009. So this is like 11 years ago and it's called independent pharmacy owners on LinkedIn. It's all right. I knew I kind of wanted a platform for something and I never found a good reason for it because it never had very good feedback.

I mean, LinkedIn got a lot better a few years ago when Microsoft bought it. But up until then there weren't many medical professionals. Hardly at all. And I haven't baited it. I haven't said like, Hey, vote on this, or what do you guys think of this? I mean, you can do a lot better to get involved in things, which I haven't done.

So I just let it brew for a while. And now I'm using it mainly to get my podcast advertised on there. But I think that is part of the reason for that. Pharmacists won't use it, because one is a LinkedIn group. They were pretty rotten for a while. Secondly, people don't trust who is there. Cause I let anybody in there.

I don't vet them third as well, probably cause it's it. Can't be anonymous. There's a lot of reasons, but then I've talked to some people that I've talked to Deborah who was on the show half a dozen shows ago or something, and she runs a Facebook group, but their biggest problem is vetting is knowing who's a pharmacist or.

And she actually said there's like some spies on there and I was trying to get her to go real deep and give me like a James Bond story. But she just said they were, she just said they were spies. You know, people who maybe used to be pharmacists, talk about vetting. Is that difficult to do? Yes 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: and no.

I mean, it's easy because we have a pharmacist license, you know, and so that's a requirement for. The prescribed review for getting into the RPG LA in general, is, is that pharmacist license. Um, so we validate that every time someone signs up, you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: actually have to do something with that. Can you run it through something?

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: We just go to the board, the state board's website. Oh, you do that, huh? Yeah, I have to see. You know what I mean? We have, I mean, there's been plenty of folks. Who've tried to join that either aren't pharmacists or they're, their license has become inactive. So it's, you know, we, we don't let them into the community so that's that, that's the first piece of it.

Um, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: so you got some spice stories, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: nothing cool that they're not, they're not, they're not cool spy stories, but. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Do they know that they ran out. Do you think, and they're trying to get in just to be part of it or, um, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: no idea make something up. Well, I mean, there's, there's been people. I mean, if you think of big pharma, there's, there's a lot of, oh right.

You know, big pharma. There's a lot of people who work in pharma that are not pharmacists. Right. So there's been, there's been, you know, individuals that have some sort of health solutions, email, you know, where you go. You can't find 

Mike Koelzer, Host: them. Do you think you have people putting in fake numbers? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: I wouldn't think so.

You brought up a funny point earlier about the spies. I mean, I. Pharmacy as pharmacists or nerds. Right? I mean, I, I, I'm proud of that. We think differently. I don't know too many people that would want to get into a pharmacy group.

You know, those aren't pharmacists. I dunno. I dunno what your aspire do on your other platforms, but it's like, honestly, it's, it's pretty boring stuff. If you're not a farmer. At the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: pharmacy, we have like Norman Rockwell calendars, you know, and they're for free, you know, and people love those. And, and, uh, to some of the people I made the joke that I said, I missed her July in the middle, and then they just put it right back down on the counter and walked out.

So, no, one's trying to break into a pharmacy. How about the pharmacist though? Their license expired. Maybe they just want to kind of hang out and be part of it still, but they're not active anymore. You've come across some that are not active anymore, right? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Yeah. No. Yeah. And they're not, they're not accepted in, what 

Mike Koelzer, Host: do you think their deal is?

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: I mean, there's a lot of pharmacies that are burnt out right there. They found something else. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: But they still want to poke 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: around. I've only had one of those that had an expired license. It was legit. It was licensed. I looked up, but it was inactive. So, um, only one 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So far. So you look at the license, that'll do it.

Or do you have to do anything else? Well, that pretty much captures it. Phase one. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: We're just looking at the license down the road. We have a company. Um, once, once we grow. Future state, we will be having a company that has your background, where it will ask you security questions about, did you live on this street, this street, or this street?

That sort of thing to prove that it's you? Yep. Yeah. That's the future state. But right now we're just checking, checking licenses. They'll say 

Mike Koelzer, Host: something like here's five street names [00:25:00] and then some of them it'll be none of the above. Right. So you can't even guess it'll let you. I come from a family of 12 kids and two of my siblings want the worst for me.

And they've taken legal action against me. They want the worst. So, oh, I have a lot of people that don't like me, but I probably only have two people that are really out to get me that would really want to damage me. And that's one of my brothers and one of my sisters, and they've got these questions on things.

It's like, Where were you born and who was your kindergarten teacher and all these things. It's like, those are the only two people that are out trying to get me and they know all this stuff. So let's come up with some better questions and these personal things on these passwords, that's number one. But then I had one, a few years ago.

It was like, who did you, who did you take to prom? I think it was. Who did you take to prom? And high school is now they've got three years of grades where you can go to prom and then there's homecoming, and then there's swirl. And you know, someone like me that a girl couldn't stand being around for more than a couple of months, I had a different date at all of them.

And so how would you know who your prom date was? You've had that question. Yeah. Got it. Who is your prom date? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Yeah, no. I remember who my, a couple of prom dates, Dave Letterman 

Mike Koelzer, Host: years ago, he said, uh, he said he had a hard time dating in high school. He said, uh, he went to prom and he had to, he had to take his cousin to prom.

He had such a hard time finding a date. And then Dave said I was embarrassed and he was embarrassed. I ain't no genius, but I'm assuming there's more avenues out there to gather pharmacists together for talking and things like that. Not so much though, when it's vetted, because you don't know who to trust.

So the vetting is a big deal, but I'm imagining that your inclination that you first had about your first thought was really the doctor rating on this, right? Correct. It almost seems like it to me. That is so strong that you could almost focus purely on that unless the vetting is strong enough because the vetting is a big deal because it's hard to know whom to trust when you're online.

So that's a big deal, but I think really strong is the doctor thing. Let me play devil's advocate. Why did you not lead with that saying we're going to be the doctor one that does, you know, the stuff we talked about versus we're going to have a community of pharmacists. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Great question. And it was funny.

My developer actually asked the same thing. He's like, well, I see it. Two ways you have the connecting piece. And you had the prescriber review and he asked you to choose only one. So do you want to go with a prescribed review or do you want to go to the connecting piece first? He was 

Mike Koelzer, Host: hypothetical for simplicity, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: you know, not to boil the ocean, whatever.

Right? One of those corporate terms that I love so much, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, every year they have a new one. You know, I never heard that one boils the ocean. That's a good one. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Um, so you know, you kinda laid it out, you know, it's like go this path or this path. So you asked me. If the prescriber review fails and sinks in and it doesn't take off, then what, then you'd pack up your bags and quit.

And I was like, no, let's, that's why I wanted to go with the community piece to connect a piece first, because there's a lot more value in that, that we can do as a profession, just with a connecting piece, then you can start pulling in journals. You can PR you can pull in, um, we have like a news aggregator.

Totally happy with it. Cause we, you know, pharmacy news doesn't aggregate well, like you can't put it nicely, but then, you know, Future state, if you start bringing in all the news streams for pharmacy, you know, and that's another place where they would actually post their stories, it would, it would be a lot cleaner.

We are working on some pharmacist, metric tools. Think of myself as a corporate pharmacist for so many years, right. I've worked for three chains and the metrics had to meet, you know, whether they were fair or not. It was pretty hard to be, you know, like I thought it was a good farmer. Right. My patients love me.

They kept coming back, you know, you know, they would be sad when I left. Like there's no metric for that. Right. Um, but my waiting times were bad. My, my verified by promised time was bad. So like, those are poor metrics. They, you know, that makes me look like a bad pharmacist though. I know I'm not, I'm there to take care of the patients.

So, like right now, we're, we're building other tools that we can plug in to where it's like, you know, [00:30:00] these pharmacists are gonna be able to take these metrics with him from job to job or through all through a career. Um, just to kind of put on CVS and things like that. You know, there's a lot of stuff that we can do with the platform itself.

I mean, the platform is easy, but it's the way technology works, where you can just plug in the API APIs and you can connect stuff and, you know, that's, that's where. It is out with, with the platform, you know, with whether the prescriber review is successful or not. It's like we're still going to continue pushing on.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You'll still have a nice base built up. Cause it seems to me like that base will rise at a steady rate. It seems to me like the prescriber thing, if it's hot, could really take off. Doesn't really take off. You've got this rising base already from the bottom. That's kind of steadily coming up. Honestly. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: I thought it was going to skyrocket because I thought it was so cool.

But then you hit, then you hit reality and it's like, you know, getting the word out there. It is like you said, a slow rise. I had a business consultant for awhile and you know, she really tried to. You know, teach me that this is what, you know, like when I was in the design phase, the building phase, you know, that was the easy part, right.

It was. And that was really the fun part. She's like, once you get it out there, that is where it becomes tough. You have to have your pitch deck dialed in and this and that. And I didn't believe her. And it's like, you want to go to advertise on social media, it's going to cost six to $10 per member. And I'm thinking to myself, no, that's not what.

'cause it's like, this is a pharmacy. We are niche all of that, which he, which he said in the very beginning, when I was, you know, still building and still figuring things out was how hard it is to be in the market. You know, even if you have the right product, right. Product market fit, like there's still a lot of things that have to happen in order to get it, to really take off to where to buy design.

So that's probably been one of the biggest struggles is just getting the word out and really at the end of the day, it's new. How's it going to help you, Mike, how's it gonna help you today? You know, and that's, that's the piece, it's the chicken and the egg, right? It's like, you know, that that's been the biggest struggle.

Mike Koelzer, Host: We'll think of stuff at the pharmacy to do different programs or products or things like that. And one thing I always have to tell myself is. People are already getting by without my great idea. It's not like I created oxygen. You know what I'm saying? They're already getting by without my idea. Oh, here's another one.

Let's say that I come in and I say, I'm going to build this pharmacy here because this area needs to be served. It's like, what don't you think? Getting medicine here already. You think this is the first time that someone, you know, has taken a pill, you know, so people are already getting served.

And so I think that's a struggle for all of us when we do something they're getting served. And how can you help them? What's that other hole we can fill? It probably takes some time. Um, I'm still 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: glad I did it cause it's still growing. Like I said, if, if the prescriber review sync. It's like we have other stuff coming that we can easily plug in and it's like throwing darts.

Right. Um, I'm, I mean, I don't want to say the prescriber reviews, like throwing darts, but cause I truly believe in that if the pharmacist band together and started building that data to really help each other out. Um, but also like when this other stuff that we're building with, uh, with building metrics, for pharmacists to take with them throughout their career.

That could be something that could be hot. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's what I wanted to comment on because when I talked to, um, Chad, from when I work, which is a cool scheduling program, we had talked for a while in the podcast about how it used to be that college was the only way. That you could prove your tenacity. It's like, all right.

I don't care what you studied in college. I don't care what you studied. I don't care what your grades were, but what I want to see, what I know from a college person is that they were able to sign up for college on time. They were able to live in a dorm. They can move in, move out. They could take the summer off.

They could go back, they could stick it out. They could finish their term papers, you know, all this stuff that gave them these metrics. So what, when I work, the idea is, instead of just using college for that, why don't we build into when I work some things like what programs have they learned? At a certain job, do they show up on time?

You know, what's their attendance, how long have they been there? All of these metrics that only college could really do before, because you didn't have ways to talk to all the old employees and things like that. So what can be recorded that college used to do outside of there? I think that's really cool for your program.

You know, some people have been out in the field for 10, 15, [00:35:00] 20 years and they're collecting a lot of those. Proof of character or proof of tenacity that college proved before, but what really do they have left? Especially if they're moving jobs and especially if they got a, maybe a manager who was an a-hole, that's not going to give them a good review when your new company calls and stuff like that.

So what can you put into a program like yours that you can move with you and actually literally move with you on, on a phone that you can show to someone at an interview. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: You know, being able to extract reports and things like that, for whatever you build, whatever you want to build and capture for yourself that you can put on a CV, you can put on a resume, you know, to help you at your next interview, if needed or things like that.

We're still building that. So I don't want to get too deep into that one. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I know you said you had a developer and so on, so you had to basically hire a developer and I'm assuming you didn't have computers. Skills to build, right? So you pirate all this and you had to find it, finding it's the main thing and making sure you've got the right people.

Right. And I went 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: through, I think, three different developers before I landed. Um, with, with mark, the guy who does all the, all that for me now interviewing 

Mike Koelzer, Host: them or actually hiring them. Well, it, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: developers are kind of funny. At least the ones I've worked with, um, Because, you know, it kind of starts out like you're coding, you're like dating, right.

And, and, you know, you get on a few calls and, you know, you know, I have my deck that I, you know, show him and kind of what I want to do have my requirements laid out 

Mike Koelzer, Host: your deck is like they use, like on an animation, you kind of just jot down some different pages that you might like and stuff on your program.

Really 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: fun to show you what my original wireframe deck looked like. Cause I'm. I'm not that great at making PowerPoints. Right. It's not pretty. And, uh, but yeah, and so it was, you know, you meet for awhile start, you know, tell them what you need. Um, Lay it all the requirements, they go back, they work on it, come back, um, kind of talk about estimations and things like that, how they work.

And the first guy I probably talked to for about a month, like every week we were working and then all of a sudden it came time to appoint to pull the trigger. And it was just kind of one of those things where I got put, like, I felt like I was calling. And I'm like, I, I shouldn't feel like I'm cornered.

Like, I'm I'm I want to hire you. Right. And, uh, and I was like, all right. That's uh, and then I ended up talking to one of my old bosses who, you know, had a guy that did some developing forum and, and, you know, he was great. I wanted to hire him. Okay. We're back in 

Mike Koelzer, Host: that corner. What were you feeling and what was happening because I hate that feeling.

What was happening though, that you felt cornered 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: giving back to your stat MRX talk. You had. Partner, stock 

Mike Koelzer, Host: partners sock. He didn't take the bait 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: though. You tried really hard. And it was really funny anyways, but that's what it came in. And it was really going to be like the cheapest route for me would be to partner with these guys.

There were two guys partnered with them and then, and had them do all the development. And, and I would basically, you know, and all of a sudden they came back with what they wanted and Nick had this partnership. And I was like, nah, no, thank you. You know, it's like, that's, it's, like I said, I'm a pharmacy, you know, develop, I mean, right.

It's like, let's keep that separate. And I'm going to kind of say what I need you to do. Right. And, and it didn't feel like it was going to be too much a push and pull type. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All of a sudden they wanted to marry you and you haven't even held their hand yet. They wanted a big piece of the pie. And they probably weren't going to do that for free, probably we're going to charge.

And then also they wanted a piece of the pie, you know, I, I 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: didn't feel comfortable with that, with that deal. Good for you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: run from 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: that, right? Yup. And then, uh, then the, uh, second developer was referred to by one of my friends. Well bosses and a great guy. Very well-experienced, you know, he was, he's been in, he's been developing for 30 plus years, has a great team.

Um, but just way too expensive. Right. And it was kinda like, well, Sorry, I'd love to hire you, but, uh, you know, and it wasn't at the idea stage and that, you know, like he kept talking about the minimum viable product. He taught me a lot about really the development side of it gave me a lot of lingual I needed to use, you know, which was a great, um, you know, but, but at the end of the day, I, I couldn't couldn't afford them and I couldn't sell them on the idea of bootstrap for me.

Right. You've been around long enough. He had seen, you know, too many apps and too many, too many products die. He's like, I can't do this without, you know, at least the MVP going first. So 

Mike Koelzer, Host: bootstrapping would have been him 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: building it and being like him just being like, like you said, like it on some [00:40:00] partnership and him worrying about all the labor of the building and the development.

So 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's interesting. So in that case you would have taken some of that, right? Oh, definitely. But so the one guy was pressing too hard and this guy wouldn't wouldn't do it. So you're trying to find your like Goldilocks. And that's what learning's all about. Right? I mean, you didn't 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: know, you didn't know that.

No one, no, it was really funny. Cause I thought I was going to have to build this for a lot more. Than what it actually costs. I thought I was going to have to put in like a million dollars to get something built. Right. You know, and I literally had no clue how much stuff costs. Cause even when I worked with developers on previous jobs, like that's not my money, that's corporate money.

Right. You really don't know, you don't see the bill at the end of the day, you know? Um, so yeah. And then, and then finally, I, um, I was, uh, you know, kinda like your previous story for, you know, going through college and things like that. Cause I, I had, I had a buddy that was horrible at going through college.

But he has horrible grades, but yet he's like some VP of some biotech company. Right. Uh, just cause he knows how to talk to people. And he referred me to a guy that made an app for him, who is my current developer mark. And he said, Hey, this guy built an app for me. Reaching out and kind of whatever they did on, in that space.

And, you know, I had a couple of meetings with him and he's great, you know, and reasonable and, and, uh, and he really believed in the product itself. So he was really happy or I was really happy to have kind of met him. Like you said, what'd you call that my, uh, GoldieBlox. Yeah. So yeah, that's just, it was kind of funny.

Like, I mean, I got to know a bunch of good people just trying and trying to find my way to this point, you know? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Was that all part of it that if you were to have. Done it all again, was that like, oh, I can't believe I wasted this and that. Or was that like all a good thing, you know, like meeting those two guys and learning that.

And did that affect you in a bad way or was that okay? 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Okay. I mean, I, it, at the time I was, I was like, oh, you know, like it, wasn't a fun position to be in. You know, and I'm not very good at being mean, you know, it's like, you know, so it's like, you know, I haven't had that conversation of like, Hey, you know what, I'm going to go find somebody else.

I'm gonna go work with somebody else to have me. That was it. That was a tough conversation. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Um, So Sean, then you find that Goldilocks and you get that and then you just start, uh, you just send them stuff and he sends it back to you and you do a little edit here and there. Right. And you just kind of move forward.

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Very, very slow process. But yes, you know, it's, it's a slower version. Yeah, no, it's funny. Cause it's like, I've often found, I keep getting reminders that I'm not very patient. Right. But whenever you're building something or doing something like this, it just takes a lot of time and it's been almost two years now.

First thought of it, like doing something like that. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: When I was like seven years old, I was in Florida and I was at one of those. I've told this before, but I was at one of those. It might've been a carousel of progress or something put on by GE or something like that, where they sing the same songs. So often you're going to barf if you hear it again, you know?

And so, but at the end, you'll walk up and there's this TV. And I saw it was like the city of tomorrow and they had two people talking on the phone, but on a TV to each other. And I thought. Oh, my gosh, if that ever happens in real life, that's going to be the future. When people can look at each other, like we're doing right now.

Cause we're for the listeners. Uh, Sean and I are on screen with each other, but we don't, you know, we do this just an audio podcast, but we've made it to the future now because we can talk and we can see each other while we're talking. Do you have a future thing like that in your mind for the company?

Like you've dreamt that when this happens, you've made it or is that kind of a changing thing all along? Well, it's 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: definitely changed, you know, it's definitely a change cause it started as it started as a prescribed review. And then all of a sudden it comes into like a social media connecting piece for pharmacists.

Right. But I honestly think it's, it's changed again to be more than, you know, Like strip away social media, like, yeah, there will be a social media channel within the platform. They'll always be there because people live and breathe social media these days, but it really is, like the future state is that central pharmacy hub where you have to pick a channel.

I mean, if, if you're. In the pharmaceutical industry. It's like, you go to that channel and you know, you're getting whatever resources you need within that channel. Everything is plugged in, in the informatics. I like that one that 's very hot right now, but, but, but it's like, you know, you want to get into that.

And there's a whole bunch of different resources within that channel. You know, I think the future state of our PHL is if you turn on your TV. You know, like we stream with Roku, right? So it's like, what are we watching tonight? Right. And it's like, what are we doing? Are we listening to pharmacy podcasts?

Are we looking at, you know, trying to find journal articles for some sort of [00:45:00] research that we want to do? Or are we just going to go to social media or are we going to go check out the job? Same thing, things like that. So it's more, but it's really just tailored to pharmacy, you know, to where, where you and I don't have to learn how to use another platform.

Everything is going to be streamlined for you where we can stay plugged in, see what's going on and really try to make ourselves better as a profession. From learning 

Mike Koelzer, Host: from others, the end goal of a company changes. And that's, that's beautiful. That happens, you know, all the time. I was just talking to a kid at work who now has a Bluetooth speaker thing.

And it was from a company that just always made guitar things before. And now they're under the Bluetooth speaker thing. So things change all the time. But when you were thinking about this, did you ever have a point where you said, if I do that. I've made it, whether it was it. And don't give me numbers.

I'm not talking numbers here, but w was there a point in your head where you said, if I get so many subscribers or I make so much money, was there anything like that where you said this is going to be my goal or was it always just been like, I'm climbing the mountain and then I'll just keep climbing and see where it leads me.

If I can get the 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: full pharmacy nation. You know, um, and I will know, honestly, if I'm on the right track, if I can get one of my classmates, Nate to sign up and have a. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Now that's interesting. We got to talk about Nate here for a second. Yeah. Now, does Nate already know that he is your goal or is it the opposite of that where you just want to see if naturally Nate signs up without knowing that he's your goal?

And he knows it now. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: He's uh, I've, I've tried to convince him enough times to just get on there, test it out, help me out. Nope. You know, he thinks it's just pure social media, which he doesn't have, um, one social media account. Right. And 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you probably have an agreement that he's not going to do it just to flatter you.

He's going to do it when he would truly do it without knowing. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Well now I think it's to the point where he'll never do it, just because it's me right now. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: He's not laughing anymore. Oh, now you're screwed. I know. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Hopefully there comes a point where he's like, all right, I just have to do it because it's, it's a, it's all the rage, right.

For us pharmacists. That's, that's what I need to get it to for him to want to sign up. Not just out of spite for not signing 

Mike Koelzer, Host: up. It's almost like there's three reverse psychology going on there kind of thing right now that Nate knows. Uh, do you think Nate won't do it for a while? Just because he knows he's the marker.

Yeah. You know, 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: and uh, I mean, he'll, he'll probably log in with Justin. And one of the other guys from my classmate, from 

Mike Koelzer, Host: my class. Were you guys buddies in college or was this a guy that like gave you a swirly or something? No, we were, we were comrades. You must have told him this at some point. This was your goal.

I mean, he must've said it's not going to work. I never want to do that. He 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: actually was the opposite. Like even before. Like when I first, uh, sent him, I think it was, I didn't tell him until after I think he's part of the beta test. So I threw it out, my classmates, um, from North Dakota state, you know, just to get them to get in there and start tinkering with it and see if they like it.

And, uh, I think that was the first time. That he had heard about it, you know? And, but I knew he wouldn't like it regardless. I did not expect him to even sign up. Right. But then because of social media, because of social media type things. Yeah. But he called me and he started giving me props and started saying how cool of an idea it was.

And he's sort of giving him, you know, all this great feedback. Um, just from checking out the website and whatever it was, whatever I had, um, he loved the name. And so, I mean, that, that was, that was great to hear that from him. Cause I didn't go to him for that very reason because he's always been a tough critic.

Like even in pharmacy 

Mike Koelzer, Host: school, you have to be careful. Okay. Who you tell stuff in life, you know, I'm learning that more and more, and you know that. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Yeah. I mean, he's a great friend. I just knew that he wasn't the guy that I was going to go to early on, but now it's become, like you said, it's like a reverse, reverse psychology thing where it's like, I don't even know anymore and he could never sign up just out of spite.

So I'll never feel like I've ever accomplished my goal, you know? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So I'll never know you'll be like on your deathbed and you'll call your friends around and you'll have. Three hours left to live and Nate will come by, you know, and he'll say, check your sign up log. And with all your might, you'll lift up your three ounce phone and you'll pull it to your face, you know?

And, and you'll look, and Nate will be signed up and it'll be like the end of. Inception has, do you ever see that inception with, um, you know, where the [00:50:00] dreams there's like three layers of dreams, right? Leonardo, Leonardo. And at the very end, the top is spinning, you know, and there'll be a movie of you with Nate signing up for it.

And you'll just like, let out this blood curdling scream because you won't know if he liked it or you were dying and that was his gift to you. Uh, well now, Sean, you better pick a different goal after this discussion. Now that's all changed. Now it's gotta be something else back to the whiteboard, back to the whiteboard on what success means.

Well, gee, Sean, I wish you all the best. It's really cool what you're doing well, thank you, 

Mike. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: I appreciate you having me on here. Number one, cause this is a, I've always heard pharmacies are smaller. And we've heard it over and over again. And I'm like, well, I'm kind of buying. I mean, that's where I'm thrown in all my, all my eggs into the pharmacy is a small world, you know, and, and definitely to put your podcasts gonna definitely help get that word out 

Mike Koelzer, Host: there so much appreciated.

Yeah. My pleasure is podcasting. You know, it allows a place, I think, to talk about them. Uh, pharmacy and talk about the bads of pharmacy, but be able to do that all in one conversation and then just let people kind of listen and make some decision for themselves instead of, you know, the news, trying to put them into one camp or the other.

Well, Sean, golly, best wishes on stuff. We'll be following sounds 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: great. Michaela. I'll keep you posted on the progress as well. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Just don't rate pharmacists there. Okay. If you rate pharmacists, don't let people look at the lowest ratings because there's no reason I have to be on top of every list, you know?

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Thanks 

Mike Koelzer, Host: a lot, Sean, as a pleasure. 

Shawn Bjorndal, PharmD, RxAlly: Bye. Alright. Talk to you soon. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Bye-bye.