Prescriptionless Pharmacy | Dr. Kathy Campbell, PharmD

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: Dr. Kathy tell our listeners why you're here. 

[00:00:16] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I'm Dr. Kathy Campbell and I'm an independent pharmacist. I am a clinical community pharmacist. And about five years ago, I actually was very clear and communicated with my staff. There were such changes going on in our industry, and I basically challenged them with the question, how do you be a pharmacy and not fill prescriptions?

Because we had lost control of our product per se. And so I started developing new products to sell in the pharmacy, and I think it's that innovation and problem solving. That all that based foundationally in the patient's wellbeing and the clinical aspects of, uh, of being a healthcare provider. Um, I've kind of done some of that.

And I think I'm here because people want me to share, um, my point of view, my clinical knowledge and how I have innovatively created new products to sell in the pharmacy. 

[00:01:19] Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. So back this up, Dr. Kathy. So back at the pharmacy, you said not only how do we improve our business, or how do we do a better job that you actually put it to your team and said, if we had to stop selling prescriptions tomorrow, how would we.

Survive. Is that basically what you put before 

[00:01:44] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: them? Yeah, it is. It's the con it's a conundrum, right? It's a very difficult puzzle. Uh, you know, I, I, I'm a very small operation, right? I wasn't going to be effective at changing the winds of change with regard to somebody who's telling me I'm not, they're going to pay me less and less and less.

I had no control over my margin. I'm just honoring enough to not want somebody else to dictate my future, personally, my business outcomes and the piece that is most critical is I did not want them to tell me how to take care of my patient. And so I, uh, I did challenge them. I've always been in a prevention mode.

I don't want any of my patients to be seen. Right. I think, you know, they're my family, they're friends, I've known some of them longer than I've known some of my, one of my parents. And so, uh, I always wanted them to be well, but often the first 20 years of my career, 15 years of my career, that I was getting reimbursed for through the current business model of the prescription dispensing fee and such.

But when that started going away, I had to have the courage to create a new paradigm for, uh, the financial success of my industry or my business. At the same time I was committed to having those great outcomes for my patients. You know, pharmacy is a one trick pony. We'd been massively distracted over the last 30 years with an overprescribing of medications and in good faith, we've been trying not to have our patients die with all these medications.

We have to do it right. And so we've been very distracted and, and maybe lost sight of the fact that more and more medications was not necessarily equating to more and more health for our patients. Um, so that distraction, um, I think while we were distracted, the vultures were circling. Yeah. I like 

[00:03:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: What you said about you is not going to allow somebody else to tell you how you are going to serve your patients.

And do I have that right? That, that. Happening because of the cinema mission, not of not having money. So basically if they're only paying you so much, they're telling you how to serve your patient, because if that's your only remuneration they're telling you, you cannot spend time with them. Was that what you mean 

[00:04:30] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: by that?

Yeah. I mean that, and you know, I'm honored enough to be an entrepreneur basically because I wanted clinical autonomy wherever I went. Right. And, um, more and more they were in, having to fill more and more prescriptions when there was less and less margin. Right. They automatically limited the structure of providing care and they've done it in other aspects of healthcare as well.

But in the pharmacy, I was just, I didn't want that to go that way. I mean, I had somebody offhandedly say to me one time, what are you going to do? So. And I said, well, I'd make more money off an organic turnip than I would by dispensing furosemide right now. So, and I'd actually in, in that patient, eating that turnip, I would be introducing some amazing chemistry to help with their health and wellbeing.

So it was like, yeah, that might be what I end up doing. I don't 

[00:05:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: now. You meet with your group and you come up with a statement almost that you figuratively nail on your pharmacy door. Is that what I saw on your LinkedIn profile? Kind of your, like, this is my shout out to the world of, of what's going to happen with me and my 

[00:05:48] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: future.

You know, I have always been trying to find that bearing of where we're going. Right. And, and, you know, you can call it a personal mission statement. You do all that stuff. I'm who I am because you have a great little. Okay. And health is foundational to that great life. Health is foundational, and I have a certain level of skills with my clinical skills, my education, my ability to teach and communicate, and I use whatever I can to facilitate you, having that great life.

Now, I don't get to say what that life is, but I do know that it's a lot harder if you don't have a level of health. And I am most of the programs that I'm developing are about empowering the patient through pharmacists care, because what I know about the patient's body isn't nearly as important as what they know.

Right? So they know about the body, them knowing about their medication, then knowing about how to get the best outcome. Is ultimately where we're going to get outcomes. It's one of the things that drives me crazy about some of the ways we are actually measured in pharmacy as star ratings and all this other stuff.

None of it has anything to do with the patient being well. Right. Just because they have, it doesn't mean it's going to have a good outcome. 

[00:07:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, exactly. All right. Dr. Kathy, take me back. Has this always been a passion of yours, of being healthy or when did this come on? 

[00:07:32] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: That's a great question. Um, so my personal journey and I've got to, I was fortunate enough to be able to do a TEDx last year.

That talks a little bit about this is I weighed a hundred pounds at five years old in 1976. Uh, I had a 350 pound grandpa in 1930. Okay. Uh, there was no food around, but we were, we were going to survive the famine. So we have about, we have the genetics, we have thrifty genes and we, and so I was fortunate in that I was obese in an obese family and I was.

I didn't have a psychological, real challenge with it, but it was something that I lived for my whole life. And as I started finding interest in science and education, and then I went to pharmacy school and I studied, I always had that as a background. And what was great is I never talked about weight as something I had to do to be a better person.

Yeah. It was all about health. So there was that fat, there was that foundational study about health, right? Yeah. And then, then I went and I love science and I, but I particularly love science that impacts people's lives. So as I became a pharmacist, I actually have a bachelor's of pharmacy from OSU and a bachelor's of zoology for Moe U.

And then I went back a decade later and got the doctorate of. So, and on top of that every year, I routinely have since 19 90, 2, 30 to 50 hours of continuing education, not because I have to, but because I just love it. I just want to know. And so, because of all that, I've always thought very foundationally as to how, and I think most pharmacists, because we're trained with mechanisms of action, right?

We, we don't even realize how mechanistically and how functionally and foundationally we think about health because we're it. We just go there without even thinking about it. So as I started my practice, I was the first one to do immunizations when we could do it. I was starting, uh, blood pressure programs in the early nineties at my workplace.

So I was always, what can we do to educate and empower. That is not necessarily related to the medication it's, it's related to outcomes and quality of life. If 

[00:10:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: you right now had to start this up again. Let's say your place burns down and you have them the money to do this again. Is it safe to say you would do it again?

Would you, would you build a pharmacy or would you do something different? Health-related 

[00:10:26] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: wow. I actually asked myself that question almost every day. Um, because right now business-wise in a pharmacy. Most of our resources are being churned with no outcomes. Uh, when I asked the staff five years ago, how do we do this without selling prescriptions?

I also said to them, I would rather make $2 million a year at a 50% profit. Then $5 million a year at 10%. Okay. And so often how we measure the success of what we have in pharmacy has been related to script counts and volume. Very rarely are we actually looking at the bottom line. And a lot of 

[00:11:11] Mike Koelzer, Host: that is the Pavlov's dog thing, because I own a pharmacy and growing up, if you're in there and you don't hear the bells in the door and the drawers, opening and pinging and all that kind of stuff, you're just conditioned to think on a bad way.

You're making money. One of course you may not be. And you're also conditioned thinking that when it's quiet, you're not making anything, but in fact that can be the time when you're making the most money in a situation like yours. So we're, we're all trained that 

[00:11:45] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: way. Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to change it.

I mean, I still look at script counts because they have gone down, but our margins have gone up and to, to.it. It's a very uncomfortable, slippery transition. So if it were all to burn down today, I don't know that I would necessarily have a classic dispensing model. I might have the compounding. I've always been very big into niches.

Not because of this, I'm not a great businessman. I'm going to admit that. But I do niches because people. People need niches. Right. Right. I don't think of it as a business model because that's how you take care of the pediatric heart transplant patient. Right. Right. Uh, and so it pains me to say that the traditional dispensing I might not do, because it is a foundation for people walking in and connecting and helping, 

[00:12:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: would you be able to pick up enough people if you didn't have the blessing and the curse of saying you're a pharmacy 

[00:12:44] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: still?

I don't think so yet. I don't, I don't think the consumer has been, uh, training. To think of it that way yet. Uh, that's been, the biggest lift I've had to do over the last four years is retraining the consumer. Uh, and you know who better than a pharmacist to help you with the biology of nutrients, the biology of botanicals, biology of CBD.

We understand chemistry better than anybody in the medical profession. We don't tell people that we're the expert in the biochemistry of their body. Right. And that's, that is the training. So when I start my weight loss program is a biochemical approach. Right? I'm looking for the case. Yeah. And, I've had to do a lot of marketing to get the patients, to see it, to get the consumer, to even recognize I'm an option.

Uh, and a lot of them actually said that I never thought of a pharmacy for this, but it makes so much sense. Right. But it is a heavy lift. And I think to some degree it would be a heavier lift. If I didn't have the credibility of being a pharmacy, how are you 

[00:14:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: marketing the weight loss program 

[00:14:03] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: currently?

I'm not doing well. When I initially started, I started with a local billboard. I had a lot of Google search, uh, search engine optimization. We have a weight loss, Dr. Kathy weightloss.com. If you go on my Google review, Uh, they're incredibly humbling. Uh, they are pretty funny. Yeah. And they're perfect.

[00:14:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: You got five stars with whatever number is on there. It's five-star cause I looked through some of them 35 

[00:14:34] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: or so a lot of word of mouth and we do have a referral program and I have, you know, so I started this at the end of 2015 and, and it is, it was not a clinical initiative for me. This is not anything I hadn't been talking to people about for years.

I did organize the clinical a bit and I've used a lot of my personal approach of what I've learned over the last 50 years of studying this. Um, but the clinic became a little more organized and systemized, but the actual initiative was a marketing initiative and the older I get, the more I read.

All of life is marketing. You could be the best thing ever, but if nobody knows about it, you get to be it to yourself. 

[00:15:19] Mike Koelzer, Host: Okay. Slow down on that one for me. So you started that by saying it wasn't a clinical initiative. What did you mean by that? 

[00:15:28] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I had been, uh, doing an appointment based on hormone, hormone, um, consultations for a lot of years.

And you know, and I had been, uh, delivering a monthly seminar or people pay me to listen to me, talk about their hormones for I've been doing that for three or four or five years prior. So I've been sitting down with people and talking to them about their health for a long time. Gotcha. So what I did with the weight loss was nothing specifically different than that.

Yeah. You just packaged, I packaged it and I put a dollar sign. 

[00:16:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: You already had all this stuff together. You might've needed to put a logo here or there and do that, but that was already, that was already together. And boy, people love that. I bet. 

[00:16:14] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, yeah. And they had to have some courage. I had to have some courage to throw my name out there.

I mean, Dr. Kent, Dr. Kathy is a branding initiative that came out of that. Right, right. And they had to have the courage as a pharmacist to stand up and say, I'm Dr. Kathy Campbell. And I'm going to help you with your health and wellbeing. Well, that, that could come off a little funny to some physicians in town and some of that stuff, 

[00:16:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: plus before you could always point to a tablet or point to studies or point to a package, but now you're pointing to yourself and we're not 

[00:16:52] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: used to that.

Oh, very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Uh, and, and, you know, the, the thing is I don't apologize to anybody for doing my best effort for me. And if I have to mark it and create a brand so that I can have access to more people to make a difference with. That's what I was, that was where I got the courage to do.

It's a 

[00:17:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: nice brand too. How did that come about? Did you sketch this out or did you get a graphic artist and say, here's what I want to do? Or how'd you come up with your logo? And 

[00:17:23] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: So on, there was a gentleman who helped me. He basically, whenever we put together the entire marketing program for weight loss, that was part of it.

Uh, and he just, he knew, he knew me for a lot of years and he had the marketing insight. See, marketers are very different from pharmacists. We're not used to talking about ourselves. And that's all that marketing does is to tell, to talk about and to create in the consumer's mind a structured image of what they want you to think.

Right. Exactly. What was very great is cause I did have a relationship with him. He did know me and he came to talk to me about selling me more marketing. Right. And, and I basically said to him, I don't wanna sell more prescriptions at a loss. First of all, I don't want my patients to take more and more meds.

And I, and I don't want to sell more at a loss. I want people to be healthy. And he said to me, I can't sell that. And we were just brainstorming and I mentioned the weight loss and he about fell off his chair. He said, well, I'm selling that. I can market that. That's a $75 billion industry that people are paying cash for.

And I'm like, well, I know a little bit about that. I probably could. Package it a little bit. And so the challenge was the packaging and the marketing, and, and then we're, you're ultimately challenged with providing value and having a clinical program that actually works. And what I'm most excited about is that people are still implementing the program four years later, right?

They still have the level of health that we created along the path. They've got the skills to navigate life in such a way that they are supporting their physiology and having health. That means 

[00:19:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: everything, of course, looking out and not having someone that's actually even increased their weight from three years earlier.

So that's huge. Congratulations 

[00:19:27] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: on that. Well, thanks. And if you, if your listeners, are in that TEDx, I will talk about it. Obesity is simple. It's not the problem. It may be problematic, but it is the symptom of underlying physiology. Right. And, there are a lot of cases, like it is more advantageous to store fat than to have the sugar stay in the bloodstream and cause cardiovascular disease.

So if you're lucky, if you're lucky, you get fat. Okay. And so as I start, you know, educating and sharing and helping the patient dig into their unique situation, that never goes away for them that, you know, um, and, and so that's what I'm most excited about is that over time they still have those basic skills.

Prior to 1990 10% of the population had an obesity issue. I was part of the. I and so it was my family, but we're at 40% now. Right? Exactly. What changed? Did the genetics change? No. If, well, if anything, genetics is being influenced by the epigenetic expression of what's going on in our environment.

First, I'm going 

[00:20:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: to sit there and be pompous and say that person's lazy and eats too much. That's rarely the 

[00:20:43] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: answer it. Well, that's what you get when you go to the doctor's office. Yeah. That's what you get. I have the perfect scenario because they can give you medications that cause nutrient deficiencies and actually stimulate weight gain.

But it's your fault. If you gain weight, there's science out there. If you have an overweight patient with asthma and you have a thin patient with asthma, the thin patient will actually get an inhaler. And the overweight patient will be told to lose weight. But the problem is, patients are being traumatized at the doctor's office.

By this issue. Yeah, exactly. Trauma causes, weight 

[00:21:16] Mike Koelzer, Host: again. Tell a person who's heavy that they, that they haven't done. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, your goal then of five years ago was to say, how can we do this without the profit being? Drug-related: how far have you come? Don't give me numbers, but give me a percentage.

What percentage of the business now is what percentage of the profit now the net profit is from, for programs versus coming on. And actual prescription sales. Would you say 

[00:21:53] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: there are days I'd make more on this side than I even profit in the pharmacy. It's keeping me in business. It's keeping my payroll paid.

I haven't had to lay off people. Uh, and a lot of people are like, well, you aren't paying for a pharmacist. And I said, no, but I'm paying for a couple texts and some pay some rent. And 

[00:22:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: guess what? I enjoy more of the time that I'm there than slinging prescriptions out. Yep. Are there any notable ones? Failures or things that different roads you went down that you maybe would have saved time or money, not going a certain way in your pursuit of this?

No, 

[00:22:31] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: you learn along the way. So I can't say that I made huge missteps. Sure. Mostly because I don't relate to my life that way. I like everything there for a reason. Um, I think there's some technology stuff that if I had had more courage and more ability, I probably would have tapped into earlier and gotten some help with the problem if I've had to do this with very little resources.

I've done it. It was very resourceful. Right. I have a lot of creativity. But sometimes you need cash.

[00:23:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: Creativity. Doesn't put food on the table all the time. Sometimes 

[00:23:10] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: it does, but you know, sometimes, but sometimes you just need hard cash to get the resources in. And I've been very low on resources. Uh, um, and so that's been a challenge, um, how to leverage it and scale it. There's a few real leaders in the industry right now.

They've been giving me a hard time for years for not having this product ready to go and out there. And it's like, well, first of all, I will not put weapons out in the world. Right. If I can't just hand somebody something with my name on it, That may do harm to a patient because they don't necessarily have the training or, or something else.

So there's, I love how you put that. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, that's not consistent with my commitments for sure. Um, and so it sometimes feels like it should go faster and in reality, I just stand that it's going the way it's supposed to go. And then I meet people and then it, you know, one of the notable things that happened last year is I partnered with NCPA to create a course, to start training the it's called creating health pharmacist, led lifestyle and weight management.

And so that's the first phase in people actually getting a mindset, paradigm shift clinically to support patients in the lifestyle approach. And, and, and, you know, people are often a little wary about talking about diet, talking about stress. Uh, and most of our drugs are only approved as an adjunct to diet and exercise.

So they're not even supposed to work. They're not approved, but as an adjunct to diet and exercise. So what do you mean by that? Give me an example, a metaphor. Yeah, all your diabetic medications, when they are indicated for a condition, they say as an adjunct to diet and exercise, 

[00:25:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: right. W what they're not supposed to do is like, my friend I'll call him a Mr.

1. But my dad told me that Mr. Z was so happy that Zantec came out because now he could eat more pizza and not feel the same, same effects or something like that. Right. They're not mad. They're not meant for that. 

[00:25:26] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: No, but Wall Street likes that approach or they do. Yeah. And I have a fundamental assertion that I, I do most of my practice off of, uh, is that most people don't want to be sick and don't want to be fat.

Right. That's my fundamental assertion. So they don't want to, they don't and often they don't know what they don't know. And so as I support them and teach them and coach them, uh, it's actually a liberating thing for them as it goes, wow, I didn't know that or I feel better. And I think most of our population doesn't know how bad they feel because they're just used to feeling so bad.

[00:26:11] Mike Koelzer, Host: And typically it came on gradually. Yes. If you took a person who was in shape and put on, I was saved, you know, if you put 50 pounds on, I'm more true. If you told them that every time they had to get up, they had to pick up six gallons of milk, you know, 48 pounds and walk around the house or up the stairs.

They'd want to probably get that weight off a little quicker too. 

[00:26:34] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, here's the deal: it's happened since the eighties, right? And it's the frog in the water that's being boiled. It doesn't know it. You just keep turning it up. And the environmental shifts that happened from the eighties on environmental and culture, I, I assert culture drives health culture, produces health.

You and I don't, we're just swimming in a, in a pool, a fishbowl of culture that is creating incredible chaos for the human species and body. And so I just helped them CRI create a new culture. It's an insular culture for their world. And what's amazing is when they do that, it just, it ripples out it ripples out.

And then that's why it's sustainable to anybody. 

[00:27:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: Lose weight in certain cultures. If you put someone at the north pole and all they had to eat was snow, they're going to lose weight in that culture. But the phenomenal thing that you've done is you've got them into the real culture. We're still here three or four years later.

They're living in this culture, but making the tweaks to change their culture just enough to make it work out. 

[00:27:48] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Yeah. And the clinical, some of the clinical measurements, I don't do a lot of blood work, but I always love to see blood work. So I encourage the patients to have it. And one of the first 10 patients I did that participated back in, in the 15, uh, she lowered her LDL cholesterol, 107 points with no medications.

No kidding. Wow. L D L she went for like 180 to 70 something. Right. And that was a function of cleaning up the drivers. The cholesterol again is simple. Of an underlying issue. It can be problematic, but it is symptomatic. So if we dealt with the drivers, uh, in her case, it was stress management and there was some dietary stuff we wanted to clean up, but stress for her was a big, big, big 

[00:28:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: driver.

Look at somebody. If you get them on cortisone, for some reason, and they blow up like a balloon and now have that cortisol in their blood day in and day out. And it's a no win battle in that 

[00:28:56] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: regard. It's biologic biochemistry. And we just forget to correlate the endogenous production versus the exogenous production, you know, ingestion and the same thing with insulin.

The same thing with epinephrine. We know what happens when these chemicals go in better than anybody. Right. So I started looking at, and this is what I teach. I teach pharmacology. Stress pharmacology and food pharmacology. And the hard one is the stress pharmacology, right? The hard one to manage. The food is the easiest part and it's not easy.

Right? Okay. Uh, I put people on a low crap diet that sounds real straight forward. It's not easy in our current culture when everything that's available is non-nutritive. The new laws are 

[00:29:50] Mike Koelzer, Host: coming out in 2020. Where did I read that? Starting food companies over $10 million in production have to put added sugar on there.

[00:29:57] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: That's great. It's still not going to do much when all that's around to grab is that to 

[00:30:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: take a kid. Put them in front of the TV and, you know, 40% of the ads are sugar ads and put them in a grocery store and like 75% of the products have that. And then to say that, that person's actually making a choice.

That's like having an alcoholic drink, walking through a bar on the way to church or something like that. You know, it's not a, it's not a choice 

[00:30:24] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: anymore. It's been a big shift that happened in the eighties. I assert, uh, one thing I was in DC doing some ag advocacy work and I had a day off one day and I went to the national history museum, which I love.

I geek out on it, but I wanted to see Julia Child's kitchen. Right. And, it was fabulous. It was just like growing up, watching. But what caught my eye was in the back of the display was a picture of a Chrysler minivan. And I was curious, and I went back there and it said the Chrysler minivan was the first vehicle designed to eat in.

Right. So think about that. You and I were alive in the eighties, you know, that started the happy meal that started supersized, that sided soccer moms that decided fast, fast, fast. Um, and then what happened was when you and I in the sixties and seventies grew up what was on our plate was a vegetable, a starch and a protein.

And that was our kids' meal, right? Yeah. Right today from the eighties on that, that foundational thinking of food is nuggets and fries. Right. And if you look at the adult, the most popular restaurants in the nation right now, they're adult portions of children's menus. So what we consider food is not food and it's non-nutritive of their vegetables.

Aren't there. You don't have the nutrients that the body actually needs to function. You exactly. You can't populate a mitochondria. If you don't have the fundamental nutrients to get in there and do it. 

[00:32:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: And you had to have food in the car, because what you had for breakfast was food. And I use that term loosely with all the fiber gone with, you know, sugar and high fructose corn syrup, which doesn't even turn off your hunger.

So you gotta eat an hour later. Give me a snapshot of your. Day, just pretend like, you know, next week, what is your day going to look like in terms of what time you are going to get to the store? How many of these individual things are you doing? When are you going to get home? And that kind of stuff, 

[00:32:46] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: you know, my day is changing a lot and that's been quite an interesting journey because for 25 years, my day looked like, get up by nine o'clock you get to the pharmacy and then you react, react, react, react until six o'clock when you get to go home.

Right. Okay. So that was a management style type of schedule. Yeah. And so, uh, as I created this event, I started the appointment-based model and I did more and more of that over the last decade. So that is, I have somebody and I'll never forget when we went from a calendar with little blocks, you know, the standard pharmacy calendar, just write what's going to happen for the day.

Right. I actually got my staff, a calendar that had 30 minute appointments and, and that was such a transition. Right. We started doing a lot more transition and we found that we would make appointments and we weren't really good at making appointments. We would have, whenever the patient wanted it, we would plug it in.

Okay. And then they wouldn't show up. And so there were challenges there. So this year. Um, there still is no standard day, but I've created blocks where there are certain blocks in my day that I'm calling it my make time, where I have to create, I have to create strategy. I have to create content I'm creating, um, you know, I've created new programs to sell in the pharmacy and to market, and I'm creating more education for pharmacists as well.

Um, and then I have blocks of time. That is my manager. And so I manage my patient appointments. It is staffing or I'm being the pharmacist. That is how I've been chunking up my day. And I've been very happy with being able to learn how to not just react all the time and to actually create, uh, so it's just a different model for our pharmacist brain and our pharmacist, uh, way of doing things.

[00:34:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: Stephen Covey, you know, talks about the four quadrants. And we want to spend time in the second quadrant if we can. I think it was a second quadrant of things that are important, but are not real time-sensitive, but, but we spend a lot of time. And I think the third one, because it's a fire now kind 

[00:35:17] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: of thing.

Exactly. I mean, in a pharmacy there's fires all the time, especially independent. Because we are really committed. High level of responsiveness and a high level of care. Now I had an incident last week where a patient came in and had a life threatening incident in my pharmacy. And so that was not planned.

That definitely was not planned. Right. He basically bled out on me. Bathroom. And I was fortunate enough that he was there and we could react in enough time that, uh, we were able to get the help and get him to the hospital, but six pints of blood and four pints of plasma later. Wow. He survived. Wow. And I hate to think if he didn't have us to have had that happen right there.

Right. 

[00:36:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: I think you said you're often the only pharmacist there. If you're doing something, if someone comes in and needs a prescription checked or whatever, how, how do you manage that? 

[00:36:17] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, I, I'm not often the only pharmacist anymore. There are, there are chunks of time. I am, and I have always been a point of sale clinical pharmacists.

Gotcha. So I am there asking people as I dispense as a stat and per se. Uh, and I'm talking to them about co Q 10. I'm also asking them, will you bring me your labs? I want to see your labs. So at the point of sale, I'm a point of sale clinician. Right? And I think that's part of what has people, um, engage with me and trust me, because they know that I'm concerned enough to ask those questions, even at the point of 

[00:36:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: sale, right.

Are there things during the week where some mornings you wake up and say, crap, I got to do that today. Sometimes I go through times where that's every, every morning for me. Uh, hopefully not though. I've tried to make enough changes where it's not, but do you have any of those 

[00:37:14] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: things? Um, you know, I love my life.

I really do love my life. Even, even the chaos of the pharmacy. I hate having to manage no cash flow. Hate it. Wish it would go away. Right. You know, uh, I'm not money motivated, which can be a problem. I am incredibly money responsible. Uh, I, I have two teenage daughters and I joke with them, cause they're always trying to talk me into a tattoo or something.

The tattoo that I would currently get says no margin, no mission. Right? So we have to have margin pharmacists have to start looking at the bottom line, or we don't get to be there for those patients. We don't get to be there to save that guy's life. So creating these programs and putting myself in the uncomfortable position of saying, I'm going to help you.

And this is how much it's going to cost. That was all very uncomfortable, but I was willing to go through that challenge to be there. 

[00:38:21] Mike Koelzer, Host: You said the symptoms you're selling. I think you said that, what do you mean by that? Is there anything 

[00:38:25] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: physical? So there's a cup. When I say new products, I am, I, that's how I term new initiatives for people to pay me for a service basically.

So there are a lot of services. So let me tell you a couple of them that I'm doing right now. Uh, the one we're working on is a diabetes prevention year-long program. Uh, so we're, we're in the process of launching that. I am talking to employers, I'm doing lunch and learning at employer events and getting paid for that.

I am, and I really am focusing on the employer as a payment model as well, because right now employers are spending a lot of money and not getting a lot of health. Right. So I'm working on that product. Uh, probably the one I'm most excited about because of the reaction of patients is last year I started doing cooking demos and I, and I created a brand.

Um, and a logo that is, I call it far X, Missy, and it's F F a R X, M a C Y. And, and I, in that I have cooking demos once a month for my patients or whoever wants to come. And I show them the basics of cooking. Cause I read a little science that said whether or not you had money was not a determinant of health, but whether or not you cooked was.

And like, I could sense that in my patients, there was a real barrier to food and nutrition and it wasn't just getting it right. It's what, what to do with it. Yeah. I started these cooking demos and it's been incredibly well received. Uh, I create some very simple recipes and, and then talk about the nutrition and the chemical value of some of those things.

And so as a product and I actually also, uh, sourced locally grown vegetables last year and sold baskets around that. So that's a new, exciting product that has a couple different, uh, fallouts one that patients are getting that information. They are taking that coaching. Um, I have new products to sell.

That's another thing, but they are coming together and connecting. 

[00:40:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: What does that mean? New products to sell means the new service that is new. Sign up to see you cook. 

[00:40:52] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, there's that I have new products in the pharmacy, so I have planted Graham and created a new planogram. That's what I'm thinking. 

[00:41:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: So you've got some kind of logo product stuff working 

[00:41:04] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: on that.

Yeah. Gotcha. Um, like I said, I had the food baskets, but the other piece of that is I'm rebranding. What a pharmacy does. Right. Right now. We have been hijacked into being part of the disease process instead of part of health, where do you go to get healthy? Right. Right. I want people to think I'm going to go to Kathy's pharmacy and I'm going to get healthy.

Right. Right. And so part of this cooking, um, initiative and one that I'm actually looking for some beta pharmacies to help if they want to do it, I'm going to, my goal for the first quarter is to get this in other pharmacies so they can start talking about nutrients. They can start putting some recipes out there and start rebranding that.

So I am actually interested in some beta pharmacies to help me kind of see what it's going to take to get this outside of my walls and help them with 

[00:42:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: that. Why know? For sure I'd be a beta 

[00:42:04] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: eater. Yeah. There you go. There you go. You know, and see our generation will eat vegetables. Sure. Two generations down don't even know what they are.

They don't even know what they are and here's the deal. I have people coming to me, he said, I don't like vegetables. I said, great. I understand that, that doesn't change the fact your body needs them to function. Right. Right. So we have to find a creative way to get them into people. And I'm not talking about powder up.

I'm talking about how to get food. And you, 

[00:42:36] Mike Koelzer, Host: the food in you, right. Exactly. Exactly. Let me play devil's advocate with you because I've always thought this too, because I've gotten my pharmacy and we also sell home medical equipment. And for years I've always thought that I probably or could have opened up next door.

Something that was whatever XYZ medical equipment. And I think I probably could have made a bigger dent by splitting up that marketing and showing that one focus and so on. I looked at your area on Google maps and so on, and I know that you've got some stores around you and dare I say, even next door to you.

Considered opening up next door and just calling it like Dr. Kathy's health something. And having people walk in and not see any drugs or anything like that. So in other words, we talked earlier about you not wanting to separate pharmacies because you wouldn't have the customer, you want to have the sick people coming in to you and so on.

Have you thought about or considered even having it like right next to each other, but split. Yeah, 

[00:43:48] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I've actually thought I've got a pretty big footprint about 3,200 square feet. And I've actually thought about separating it that way. Um, and, and I actually had, I think I stated that this week, I'm not sure at what point I'm going to go from a pharmacy to a headquarters.

You know where the actual dispensing, the, the burden, the financial burden of inventory goes away. If you just didn't have the financial burden of that kind of inventory turn. You know, your profitability, you could probably make it work with a lot less 

[00:44:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: money and take that money and put it in an average 7%.

And that right there would be probably more than a lot of these PBMs coughing up. You know, what do you mean by headquarters? 

[00:44:37] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, a place, you know, sometimes there is some administration to some of this. If it's a headquarters of me coaching people, if it's teaching, if it's an online presence, I don't know what all the, all those may look like.

Uh, I've got my, I started a supplement line. I privately labeled my supplement recommendations when I started the, uh, program for consistency. And, I put those online this year. So everything's changing from that brick and mortar. And whether we like it or not, it's changed from. Sure. Right. And, and then the question is, all right, what are we going to do?

Right. What are we going to do? We can moan and groan. Uh, I just have been focusing on a solution. The worst thing you can do is nothing. Right. And so I've just. Pitching, and I get a little bit of pushback or a lot of pushback from my staff. They're like, you need to pick one thing. That's great. Except business doesn't work that way.

You have to create and see what the market will respond to. You 

[00:45:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: gotta have proof of 

[00:45:47] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: concept, all that and pharmacy isn't that way, you know, in business, if you have a 30% success rate You hit a grand slam in a farm in pharmacy. If we add a 30% success rate, we just killed 10, seven out of 10 people, right? So there's two parts of the brain that are very conflicted in our industry.

And that's part of the hijacking that we we've been at the 

effect. of 

[00:46:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: You have to be perfect in what you do, but on the other side, on the entrepreneurial side or whatever, the business side, you want to maybe get an A, which is maybe 93% or something like that. But 93% is not good enough in the pharmacy itself.

And we're always looking for the sure thing, but it's not 

there. It has this be very conservative and not take 

[00:46:32] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: it. Have us be very conservative and not take risks. And we also want a template 

[00:46:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. Yeah. 

[00:46:39] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: And this is a new realm. There is no template. And actually, if we have a template, it probably be too small, 

[00:46:46] Mike Koelzer, Host: right.

Let's say you're 3000 plus feet and you put a wall down a third of that and you have a new entrance or something like that. What would stop you from doing that now? Because my thing is always this, uh, I'm not going to go to that pharmacy and medical equipment. I'm going to go to a place that is just medical equipment.

That's all they talk about. And I think you just said, would it be money? Is the 

[00:47:10] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: issue? Yeah, money definitely is an issue. And, I have been working on my front end quite a bit. I used to have a big area of medical equipment. Um, again, I'm a problem solving pharmacy. So I have a lot of solutions to problems when people walk in, um, I, I can get 25 people in my front end when I move the potty chairs and I move everything out of the way.

And that's where I developed my seminar series and that's where I'm going to lead. So where I would like to move my front end is to more of a cooking and, uh, that kind of a wellness approach where I actually have people coming in for those kinds of solutions to health. Uh, I don't want to compete with the grocery store, but I do want to help people really dive in and find some routine solutions.

And I think that's attractive marketing. Some of the, uh, cooking dynamic. I don't really personally care about a lot of that. So I'm not that good at it, but I don't have a lot of money to go buy another $20,000 worth of inventory, even $5,000 worth of inventory and fixtures to change that around.

So it's a very slow process, almost like $300 a week or a month. We're putting into new products and new solutions. So you think people, 

[00:48:28] Mike Koelzer, Host: When they walk in your door, now we know that they've, we know that they're coming just like me. I know that they're coming into my store, there's sick people and they're coming in and they're often the people that need the medical equipment.

And so I can say, yeah, all right. There's a nice connection there. But do you think that anybody coming into your store would be turned off or not trust you as much as a standalone? Dr. Cathy's because it's a 

[00:48:56] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: pharmacy. No, I think pharmacies still have a lot of credibility. And you 

[00:49:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: don't think that. And I'm not, I'm not implying it does.

I'm asking. You don't think that they're saying, well, they're not really healthcare. Ultimately, they're still just kind of trying to push medicine down me. You think that people are able to separate those? 

[00:49:16] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Um, you know, I don't know on a global to say that I know in my store, because I've been in the community for 25, 30 years and they trust the trust, me, and that is the other thing that I had to really come to grips with five or seven years ago.

Right. When I had no cash, I had to think, what do I have? I'm not used to making money. Right. And so in answering that, what came up was my reputation, because I had never leveraged my reputation. And I think getting, uh, aware of that was the precursor to the Dr. Kathy brand. Right. Because I had to be willing to say, I will help you.

I'm good. I know what I'm doing. And I can create some results you should come to me. And pharmacy has never leveraged our reputation. 

[00:50:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Well, there goes all my chances if it's going to be based on my reputation. 

[00:50:12] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, you know, it is what it is 

[00:50:17] Mike Koelzer, Host: when you're kind of daydreaming. Are you the next show after the doctor Oz show and you're filling up stadiums with Dr.

Cathy or where, where do your dreams go with this? 

[00:50:30] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, that's a good question. Um, I want to create a culture that produces. Okay. I want our grandchildren to live in a world where health is the by-product. Okay. I cannot do that alone. And so I am committed to creating an army to create health. And that is, I think the independent pharmacists, my friends, are perfectly suited and perfectly educated to be able to facilitate a culture that produces health.

Right. It's going to take courage. It's going to take us standing up and saying, this is not producing health. Right. Right. And so. I don't know how the, if that's going to, for me to produce that, it might mean I'm going to be on a talk show. It might mean that I need to teach. It might mean that I have to have a podcast or come on more.

It might mean that I have to have a subscription and be Dr. Cathy on a different scale. I'm fine with taking on those challenges. And I'm fine with playing that role. But my big driver is I want your grandchildren to be healthy. Right. I want a culture that produces health. It should not be as hard as it is to be healthy.

[00:51:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Right. Right. And I've asked this maybe in different ways and I'm, and I know you've answered it, but let me go back again to kind of hear it from a different angle. Can all these buildings be called pharmacies? Can they be the place that houses these answers? 

[00:52:16] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Absolutely. I actually think it's perfectly suited, perfectly suited, perfectly suited because what's going to happen is a shift in technology where a lot of the diagnostics will be done.

A lot of the whole role of medicine is changing, right? Pharmacists are perfect coaches. We coach perfectly, we get so much done in 30 seconds. Imagine if we had 30 minutes, right, right, right. The problem is we don't stand up and say, we do it right. We, we, aren't a good at marketing. And I've actually talked to some high level leaders saying we need a rebranding of our entire industry.

We need to say we are partners in that. And the rest of my career is about you not needing pharmaceuticals. My patients are not needing them right now. That doesn't mean they're not going to take them, but that may be, they don't take more. Right. That may mean that we can keep them from progressing as quickly and needing them as soon.

Right. Right. And I assert that's the disruption that pharmacies should bring to healthcare. 

[00:53:32] Mike Koelzer, Host: If someone right now came to you and said, I'm going to give you 20 pharmacist hours a week, and they're going to do a good job in your store. What, what's the first thing that you would do with those 20 hours that you're not needed per se, right.

In the pharmacy? 

[00:53:56] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Um, First of all spend some of that getting educated and reinforcing my knowledge. So it was pretty smart to me. I love it. I wake up and read more journals by the time I get out of bed than most people read in a year. And you've written 

[00:54:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: 150 articles on your LinkedIn. 

[00:54:14] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: We've got a few, got a few out there.

That's more than a few. 

[00:54:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: I don't think you have to waste any more time on education. I think you got 

[00:54:21] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: it. Oh, but I love, but it's always changing and you know, that's true. My, I'm very intrigued right now about the whole concept of microbiome epigenetics. And you want to go a little, the deepest quantum biology, you know, what is actually going on that holds our DNA together and are we disrupting it?

Yeah. Right. Well, you know, likely we all, you know, so those are not topics that are static. Those are very new and they're always changing. Staying in that conversation would need to be some of that 20 hours. Okay. So 

[00:55:00] Mike Koelzer, Host: part of that would be 

[00:55:01] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: training more education, just staying fast style, um, and believe it or not reviewing the mitochondrial function and glycolysis and, and oxidative phosphorylation on Khan academy.

Can you imagine if we'd had that source when we were kids? Yeah, exactly. Right. It's easy. Spend some time if you, you know, dig back in, you guys forgot more biochemistry than most humanity ever knew. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. And when I talked to pharmacists, I challenged them. I said, you know, you all passed that test on the Krebs cycle and then promptly forgot it.

And I'm just reminding you that you are an expert in biochemistry. Right. So there has to be a chunk of that 20 hours. That's that? And then. I would assert we have to start making relationships outside, but they're not the standard relationship they're going to be in the business entities. We are going to have some relationship with different providers, but it's not just our physicians who drive these prescriptions.

It's going to be more of an integrative. So your ma one of my biggest referral is a physical therapist chiropractic type thing. Uh, I get referrals from acupuncturists. I have people that are dealing with all these things and in good faith are trying to be well, but they're, they're going to all these different resources, which is great.

They just need somebody to help them coordinate it. So I get a lot of referrals there. So building those relationships, uh, I participate in government because, you know, when I, when I advocate and I build relationships with my senators and my Congress. I often tell them once we get all this insurance thing done, we've got to start asking a much better question.

Why is our population so sick? Right? Why do we need so much insurance and medications? Right. That's the question I really want them to think about because that's the driver. Uh, and so, I mean, yesterday I had a S a federal senators rep stop in for an hour, uh, just to stop in and chat. And we talked about, um, talked about where things stand, what things look like.

Um, and he's lost a hundred pounds over the last month. So I had to root them last year's year. So I was rooting them on for that 

[00:57:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: too. I was going to say, month, chop 

[00:57:32] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: a leg off. Now it's about a year, but I've been rooting them on and wow. And, you know, just tell them good job. And so, um, those relationships are pretty important.

Yeah. Right. And then connecting with your patients. How do you connect with the patients? It might be out front. Yeah. It might be creating that content to have that cooking demo. I've got a cooking demo. The end of month. I've got a hormone seminar in the month that we're creating the kicking off the diabetes prevention program.

So I'm going to be talking to a lot of people about 

[00:58:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: that. And those are all in person. Not on, not online through webinar or 

[00:58:11] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: anything. Yes. All in person or Facebook. Some of the social media, we're getting it out there. Uh, 

[00:58:19] Mike Koelzer, Host: PR uh, written, written, 

[00:58:21] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: written or video. I do a lot of video blogs on my Facebook. Yeah.

[00:58:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: And not video interaction, but video recorded blog. Yeah. 

[00:58:31] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Yeah. My Facebook is Medicap pharmacy, a WASO. Uh, I have a Medicap franchise and I've got a lot of fun blogs on there. And, and, um, and so I do that. Um, so there's a chunk of time there. There's also a chunk of time supporting my staff and making sure they're clear and they're not overworked and they are, they are overworked.

And it is, it is a chaotic time and they don't know what's going to happen either. Just like, uh, we don't, uh, and so supporting them and being, being well and trying to be efficient. Yeah. And looking at those drivers. 

[00:59:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. What would you do right now? If somebody said you have to sell your pharmacy, you've got to sell your inventory and this and that and your still a pharmacist, but you're no longer allowed to own a pharmacy per se.

What would your plan be? 

[00:59:38] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I'd probably breathe. Come up for air. That's funny. That's funny you say that because I've been actually contemplating something like that. And I'm in a, I hyperventilate because my identity is such around being a pharmacist. And it's also where I serve. 

[00:59:58] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, remember you still can be a pharmacist, but you cannot get a pharmacy license.

[01:00:04] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I would probably have an office. And I would probably split my time between office hours and building an appointment-based model and continuing that. And then I would probably seek out other opportunities to disseminate health. And I don't know if that would be how that would look. It might be employer based.

It might be nonprofit based. It might be a government base. I don't know. There's other ways, uh, teaching. I'm actually looking at some teaching, some courses I was contacted about last month about creating some curriculum and co presenting with a local community college. Uh, cause they said people just need some basic information and I'm like, Hey.

Um, so I think those kinds of opportunities, uh, Mike, I jokingly say I put myself through college mowing lawns and I said, if this, if this doesn't work out, I could do Dr. Kathy lawn care. So 

[01:01:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: exactly, exactly. Sometimes I'm envious of people that haven't even gone to college because the world seems to be open to them where a pharmacist will say, well, no, I've done this.

So this is kind of, you know, kind of where I am with that. Then Kathy, if you were to have done that and it was successful, would you still long for something in the actual pharmacy, would you say? Yeah, that'd be good, but I'd still miss this part. And so I never want to take that route that I just said I may do with half the time being the appointments and half the time teaching and, and employer stuff 

[01:01:46] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: In that, you know, I basically have made the transition, um, I said this 20 years ago, if I never counted by five again, I'd be fine.

Right, right. The, the, what I would miss is the connection with people, which is ultimately, I think one of the reasons that it drives us to persist is that those relationships and I like to be needed, like humans, like to be needed. My identity it's, you know, the pharmacy is where I wash feet. Right. It's where I get to serve.

And so there's a real transition and I think it's one, we're all holding onto good or bad. I don't know if it's good or bad, that connection heals people. Right. Not only heals them and heals us. So a lot of my satisfaction in life is from that connection. And so I hold onto that and I don't think it's a bad thing.

No. 

[01:02:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: Is it fair to say that some of that is actually the. Commotion that you would miss, because I would argue, I'll say aren't Gaffey, but if you had your appointment based thing, you're going to be seeing people once every half hour, you're going to be talking to employers who have problems and things like that.

Is it fair to say that you'd miss some of the commotion like being there and then all of a sudden having like five or 10 people there at once and saying, hi, Dr. Kathy, and doing this. And that is that, that feeling of wanting some of that commotion, because in the other one, you'd have this peaceful, he'd have this peaceful phone, it would have this nice little, uh, xylophone ring to it.

And so on. It gives it some of that commotion that you would miss. 

[01:03:28] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Yeah. I think there's some of that, that's fun. Some of that, some of its energy, it's energy. Right. And you know, where do you go? I mean, somebody said, you guys are like, cheers. You know where everybody has cheers, where everybody knows your name.

Right. Not only do I know their name, I know their parents' name. And I know what happened to them 10 years ago. And I remember when their mom's thyroid went south and I get to remember that. Right. 

[01:03:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: I think you would miss some of that in a half hour appointment seeing individuals, you know, 15 a day for half hour or something like that.

Yeah. 

[01:04:02] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: And I experienced a little bit of that now. I mean, I have had to make that decision four or five, 10 years ago to start going into a room and sitting there as all those people in the app, there is a window, so they see me doing it. Right. Um, so they, they do miss me a little bit and that was a risk.

It was a risk, but. If it's as big as me, it's not big enough. Right. And so I had to share, I had to make that leap of faith to hire that second pharmacist so that I could go and dig here. And I'm glad I did. I'm glad I did. Were there trade offs? Absolutely. Um, but there's going to be trade offs down the road too.

That's just like, 

[01:04:46] Mike Koelzer, Host: if it's only as big as you, it's not big enough. Yep. I like that. Finally, a doctor, Kathy, said if somebody said you were never allowed to be in health at all, you were not able to take the road of pharmacist or dietician or whatever. What else would you do if you could not be in the health field at all?

[01:05:07] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Probably be teaching , maybe into content creation. Um, or like writing or something maybe. Yeah. Something like that. But, uh, but you know, doctor is a word for teacher and that's one of the reasons I don't apologize for Dr. Kathy Brayden because doctor means teacher and, and that is what we do every day for our patients.

And, we don't brand ourselves as teachers. Uh, we are, that's, like I said, I think it's a weakness in our professional direction and that I don't apologize for that because I teach, I have power. I am empowered too. So there's a level of coaching. Uh, be it professional, social medical, whatever that I think that I would, I would be, uh, suited to as well 

[01:06:01] Mike Koelzer, Host: suited to coaching something.

Not necessarily you love health, but if you couldn't, you would still like the idea of sharing information and transforming people and that kind of stuff. 

[01:06:12] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: And once you have a great life, it doesn't have to be about health. It could be about, you know, school. It could be about your future. It could be about whatever I'm going to facilitate.

You have the life you want. That's my game. That's 

[01:06:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: my game. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'd be a professional sitter. 

[01:06:29] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: I would just like to podcast, I guess, I 

guess 

[01:06:32] Mike Koelzer, Host: Though I just like to, I would like to be a professional sitter. I'd wake up. I'd get my coffee going. And I would just sit on my phone and read and look at the news.

I'd be a professional newsreader. Ooh, that's scary. But not like the news, not like an anchor, not like reading it out loud, just reading it. 

[01:06:50] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Okay. Well, that's a big issue for, 

[01:06:54] Mike Koelzer, Host: I mean, my goal. Hey Dr. Kathy, pleasure meeting you. It 

[01:06:58] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: was great meeting 

[01:06:58] Mike Koelzer, Host: you, Mike. Hey, I wish you all the best and I'm going to be, I'm going to be waiting.

When's your book coming out? 

[01:07:05] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Uh, I'm shooting for the end of 2020. I am working on it. I am working on a book, actively creating a health course. I kind of put a little bit of time away from that this year, but we delivered that in October for the first time. Uh, that'll be coming more and more. This year. We've got one on the books for, I believe in, uh, March in DC at the NCPA.

So as that creating health course gets more and more, uh, disseminated. I'm excited about that. We're also gonna work on getting that course on. 

[01:07:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: Tell me about who was in the audience for that? The patient or other pharmacists, 

[01:07:43] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: pharmacists led lifestyle and weight management. So it's a paradigm shift in how we think about it.

And I had to go, I had to make a decision of going deep and sh you know, narrow and deep or broad and shallow. And I went broad and shallow over an eight hour course. And then we're going to go deeper with the online modules to get people thinking in a new mindset that can actually facilitate lifestyle.

And we know lifestyle is the key right now. Uh, you can give people all kinds of drugs, but you're not going to impact the outcome without the lifestyle component. 

[01:08:19] Mike Koelzer, Host: And so both of these, if I heard you right. Both of these things, you're, you're the one that's out. And what you're putting out is helping pharmacists too.

Do this in their practice. 

[01:08:32] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Yes. Um, and I'm looking to license the process of Dr. Kathy weight-loss. I've had a lot of people asking me that, and I felt there was a level of education I had to get people to before I could even begin to do that. So down the road, that's probably coming to the food curriculum.

I'm going to get out this first quarter. That's my goal. They're working on that. 

[01:08:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Who's your partner in crime with this stuff like pushing you. Is this pushing yourself or are you, do you have somebody who's um, and I know you like content creation, but do you have somebody that is saying, okay, we're done with this step now, Kathy, let's run with it and put this online and do this and that.

Or is that all you. 

[01:09:17] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: It's all me and I'm not very good at it. So if you know anybody that's good at that, let me know 

[01:09:22] Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm good at it. I mean, you're, you've done, 

[01:09:24] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: You know, I've, I've created what I've created and it is, like I said, very resourceful, pretty creative. I created it. I just figured out pharmacy was a creative platform for me a long time ago.

Yeah. The clinical side I clinically problem solve for people. So is creativity. Uh, and so I'm just taking that into a different model. Again, for me to create a culture of health, to stand for that I'm going to need partners in that. And I, and I, I think God put me in this position to, um, to get the army of pharmacists together and have us all saying the same thing and, and going in the same direction, which is lifestyle and really looking at the drivers and how can we help our patients be well and not need medicine and what a better, uh, response to the.

Um, they're not going to need your medicines. They're going to pay me to help them not need medications. Okay. 

[01:10:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's right. And what we can't do is get into the thing of saying, and you see this a lot in different political parties where they become somebody against something, but what are we doing for the answers?

And so we gotta be careful that we're not just the anti PBMs and wasting our time doing that. Where's the best spot for someone to come in and see some of this, 

[01:10:46] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: uh, probably the best way to contact me and to stay in connection is our website. Dr. Kathy says.com, DR THYS a Y s.com. There's a place.

And I would register as a pharmacist, interested in being on our website. I've got a pharmacist side and a patient side. Oh, I've got both sides on it and I'm going to be delivering content through them. Uh, and, and the, uh, far X Missy program, I'm going to be able to get it out there and that will be our portal to getting it out.

And then Kathy at Dr. Kathy says is my email. You're welcome to contact me. Uh, and, and we can go from there. 

[01:11:26] Mike Koelzer, Host: Dr. Kathy pleasure. I'll be watching ya and, uh, and, and, and ready for your books on that coming 

[01:11:33] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: out. Well, now I have to do it now that I said I have to do it.

[01:11:40] Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh boy. 

[01:11:41] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: Well, that's how I keep going forward though, is I keep committing and then there might 

[01:11:46] Mike Koelzer, Host: be a payoff before I added this, that we could pull this out. 

[01:11:51] Kathy Campbell, PharmD: All right. We'll 

[01:11:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: talk soon. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.