April 5, 2020

Improv as a Life Philosophy | Cory Jenks, PharmD, Founder of ImprovRx

Improv as a Life Philosophy | Cory Jenks, PharmD, Founder of ImprovRx
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Cory Jenks is a pharmacist and improv comedian who teaches people how to deal with the unexpected. https://www.improvrx.com/

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Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, 

[00:00:15] Cory Jenks, PharmD: hello, Corey. Hi. Thanks for having me Corey, for those that 

[00:00:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: haven't come across, you tell the listeners why you've joined us today. 

[00:00:23] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah, so I'm, I'm a pharmacist in Tucson, Arizona. I work in ambulatory care. I do disease state management. That's my full-time gig, but I also have this thing I've been doing for several years called improv comedy.

So the wide range, I know there's a lot of pharmacists out there that are also improvisers. So I'm one of many I'm sure, but I've been doing that for about seven years. I've been a pharmacist for nine years. And so I've been doing, doing comedy and teaching it and performing it, whatever. And I've developed some skills that are applicable as an improviser that I think are also really applicable as a pharmacist.

And then you and I happened to cross paths on LinkedIn and talk a little bit about soft skills and that's really the area that I think. I developed an expertise or a comfort level that a lot of pharmacists may have. Some will put it in a nice room to grow. And so I've, I've written a little bit about it.

Uh, for those I'll do a little cross promotion on teal, the, our pharmacy, I wrote an article about soft skills for pharmacy, and I've actually started to develop a business where I go and teach these improv skills to help care providers and other businesses to help employees develop these skills.

[00:01:37] Mike Koelzer, Host: That is really cool. Yeah, because I think I commented on your TL DR article. If I, that that was out, uh, a month or 

[00:01:44] Cory Jenks, PharmD: So, the article came out a while ago, but I know that they'll repost it on LinkedIn. And so you commented and I commented back and said, Hey. You do this awesome business, the pharmacy podcast, you know, a big part of business is the ability to have your employees communicate and listen effectively.

I do that and I'm a pharmacist. So here we are on a lovely Monday, Corey. So 

[00:02:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: I read that article and it talked about kind of the yes and statements. I know, which is an important part of improv. And there was just a show on that. I think that was what it was. I want to say it was you, have you ever watched you on Netflix?

I've 

[00:02:26] Cory Jenks, PharmD: not, 

[00:02:26] Mike Koelzer, Host: uh, I've not remembered, but they were making kind of a, they were making kind of a spoof of that where one of the guys was like a murderer or something and they were telling them to, they had to say yes, and or something like that. Yeah. I still forget what that was, but talking about improv, I've seen it.

Tell us about that. 

[00:02:44] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. So improv, I like to joke, is always made up. It's a form of theater where everything is made up on the spot. And I tell, I tell, I joke that sometimes it's also improv comedy. Like everything you see when I'm on stage has made up and sometimes I'll actually make you laugh. The goal is obviously, usually it's usually to make you laugh.

And so that, that yes, and statement, that's like the first thing you learn in improv. So for your listeners, if you leave this conversation, this podcast learning nothing about improv, it's that the two words that you can, you can get on the inside, uh, with improvisors as ESN. And it's essentially this idea that we agree and we built together because if I'm doing an improv scene with you and you say we're on the moon, and I say, no, we're not.

We're in a bounce house. Well, I've completely negated the world that you've created with your simple opening statement. And now we have to rebuild everything that we've done. And so we agree and then, we are just building together. We add details, emotions, and consequences to whatever. That scene has started.

So if you say, you know, we're on the moon, I say, yes. And we only have 30 seconds of oxygen left. We've raised the stakes, we've got the audience involved and we've added a detail that gives us a clearer picture of what's going on. 

[00:03:49] Mike Koelzer, Host: Okay. So, so when, when the person says I'm on the moon in that little bit of time, their mind might have just created this kind of like a dream, like when, when you're falling in a dream and yeah.

You catch yourself and you're like, wait a minute. How did I think about that before that sound? Or let's, let's say you're in a dream in that sound comes like a dog barking, but you've already put it into your story, but in the improv. So someone comes out with like on the moon, they've already got this.

Subconsciously even this is like a huge place to go and you've negated it in a half a second. Yeah. 

[00:04:28] Cory Jenks, PharmD: So I, if I say, oh no, we're, we're in a bumpy car or whatever. I've just simply negated the reality. That is, that exists from that initial statement. So if they say we're on the moon, and a lot of times when we're teaching improv to new people, they think that we have to make jokes to be funny.

And improv actually comes from a place of simple reality building and agreeing together. And so the jokey person says, we're not on the moon, we're in a bouncy car or we're in a bounce house and the audience laughs. But then you're like, well, crud, what do I do next? Because now we have to justify the reason why this person thought that we were on the moon.

Yeah, you kind of sell yourself short for this joke instead of building this rich deeper scene. Tell me the 

[00:05:09] Mike Koelzer, Host: history of that. Of when you say improv was meant to be like this story, rather than a joke. What's the history of this and what if I'm devil's advocate? And I said, well, Corey, you're just saying that because it wasn't funny.

And you say, no, Mike, it was built on this. What, what was, where was the building of 

[00:05:28] Cory Jenks, PharmD: this? So the building comes from, from the idea of improvisations, that team sport. And so when I tell people I do improv, they're always like, oh, I have some great ideas for like standup jokes. And I, and I don't usually correct them.

I'm like, okay, great. Tell me what you have, because I'm not here to negate and argue with you, right? You can't say no to them. I'm like, fine. Great. Well, we'll use this in this totally made up scene next week, but I'll remember. But, the idea is that improvisation is a team sport. And so you can't have a Michael Jordan or LeBron James on stage sucking away all the energy.

We have to rely on your other team members to either provide you with details to build upon, or you, you know, you build this thing together. And so improv has been around for, for decades. And I think, uh, it's, you know, it's got a lot of theories and a lot of different schools all over the country. And, but the basic idea is that with stand-up like you're telling a joke, like punchline joke, punchline joke, punchline, right?

Improvisation there's, there's so many different forms you can do it, but the basics of it are coming from a place of truth. Instead of creating this like, kind of out there joke you, you build from a simple agreement and then. You find the funny thing within that scene 

[00:06:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: improv world, that's known that we're not trying to go for that quick joke at the expense of getting into this depth that really could bring out some really interesting slash perhaps amusing slash perhaps funny 

[00:06:53] Cory Jenks, PharmD: stuff.

I want you to come teach some of my improv classes. Cause you've just summarized exactly what I tried to tell people is. And usually it's, if you know, you get a class or if I'm doing a workshop for a business, you have one person that thinks they're a funny person. And so they just go for these like jokes, which you'll, you'll get a laugh, but then you're stuck with nothing beyond that.

And so, and the cool thing about like this, this, yes, an idea for improv is really, I see it and I've developed it now in seven years. I really have to realize it's a life philosophy because. Instead of, you know, we say no, a lot in pharmacy and healthcare. Like us, we have to say no for safety reasons.

Right. But I think I find, we often find ourselves saying no to a different discipline or even patients like we were not listening to them. Or even like, you mentioned the idea that you come out with this big idea in your head of a scene. Well, if you're thinking of that, you're not listening to the person that is talking to you.

Like I do it with like, we all do it with our spouses, our kids, our friends, all the time. You're already thinking of the response in your head. And so this idea of saying yes is like, no, yes, you can't just say yes and you can have a thousand more Percocet just cause you want it. Uh, but it can be, yes, I hear that you're in pain and let's try to find a solution to that.

It's good that you're actually listening to what the patient or the person or the customer is saying to you instead of just having this preconception like shut off. No, no, no notion. 

[00:08:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: That is really interesting Corey, because even before we met here, the first time. And I know I suffered from that 

[00:08:25] Cory Jenks, PharmD: as a kid, I was the eighth child.

And so I was always trying to go for a 

[00:08:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: cheap, 

[00:08:30] Cory Jenks, PharmD: cheap laugh 

[00:08:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: and neuron home. It was, you know, potty humor 

[00:08:34] Cory Jenks, PharmD: and 

[00:08:34] Mike Koelzer, Host: out in public. I try to tame it a little bit, but 

[00:08:38] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I was a 

[00:08:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: terrible friend. I mean, I was 

[00:08:39] Cory Jenks, PharmD: not a good friend through high school 

[00:08:41] Mike Koelzer, Host: and stuff 

[00:08:41] Cory Jenks, PharmD: because you're always looking for, 

[00:08:43] Mike Koelzer, Host: uh, 

[00:08:43] Cory Jenks, PharmD: a cheap little gag and not listening 

[00:08:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: and things.

And thankfully I guessed probably too late in life. I learned that, but I can tell the audience. Can't see, but 

[00:08:54] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I can tell just by looking at you 

[00:08:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: and your responses, your, your visual response to me, 

[00:09:03] Cory Jenks, PharmD: how in depth, you're listening 

[00:09:08] Mike Koelzer, Host: and not even in depth until it stops. And then one second later you get to say, what's on your mind because you know, they say, make sure you listen enough to the other person so that you're not thinking.

What to say while they're talking, but then I've always said, all right, I won't think about it, but you better be damn sure I'm going to talk right away when I can, when it's, when it's ethical to talk. But, but you're like, 

[00:09:38] Cory Jenks, PharmD: you're 

[00:09:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: like 

[00:09:39] Cory Jenks, PharmD: focused truly on what I'm saying. 

Yeah. And I think that's a lesson that I continually learn as an improviser, as a human being.

When you start doing improv, sometimes we call it getting in your head and you're just thinking so hard. How do I come up with the next line? And sometimes with a patient or with a doctor that you're trying to convince of a therapy. You're like, how can I convince them? But if you take a step back and realize the gift of everything you need to say is everything.

You're the person in front of you is saying, whether it's with their words or with their body, like everything you need to respond is like right in front of you. If that makes sense, like what you've just said or what you were just saying is all I need, I don't need to be thinking about my next response.

I just need to. Paying very close attention to you, or whether it's the patient, because if they're on their phone, not listening to me, as I'm trying to counsel them on something, then they're telling me that they're not interested or that they are engaged in their healthcare. Maybe that means I need to take a different approach, uh, with whatever you're saying verbally.

Like right now, it's, it's very verbal. Uh, you know, where you and I are visual, but you know, I came on here, not with a plan to say, I'm going to say X, Y, and Z today. Uh, but your questions and even your statements are prompting me to, to come up with the next thing to. 

[00:10:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. And it's everything, it's not just the words coming out.

It's the visual or lack of a visual, like you talk about, I'm looking at a phone or something like that. 

[00:11:07] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. And I, and I think, you know, the, the term flow state is brought about, and I can't profess to be the best improviser in the planet or in Tucson, but I can tell you the best scenes I've ever done are ones where I'm looking right in the eyes of the other person.

And that's what we tell students. That's what we tell our, when we're coaching, it is like, look into the eyes of the person across from you and everything you need comedically in life is going to be right there in front of you, like trust the other person, trust yourself. And the best, you know, funniest, improv scenes I've had are ones where it's like, I'm just responding to whatever is put in front of me and the best interactions that I have with patients with providers.

It's just like, you're in the moment, you're having a chance to use that pharmacy expertise or whatever discipline you might be. And you're hearing what they're saying. And you just like, you're responding to the need in front. That's really interesting. Yeah. It's really about embracing the lack of control that we have.

And I think pharmacists, uh, I know I I'm, this might surprise you, but I'm very left brain. Like I'm very type a very, like check the box, move on to the next step. And I think that's what appealed to me as a pharmacist is going to college. Like I picked pharmacy at 17 years old. My chemistry teacher asked me what I wanted to be.

And I said a pitcher for the Chicago Cubs. And she said, you're not going to be that. So what's your, what's your real plan pharmacy at, you know, at 17. And it appealed to me like, go to college, you get this degree, you get this job. Like, it's like every step, step, step, step. And I think that's good in many senses for, for what we need to do as pharmacists and in healthcare.

I think that it becomes a hindrance to us when, uh, like the other day I had a patient ask me to give them a prostate exam. It's like, how do you respond to that in a way that doesn't offend them? And I was like, well, I could do it, but neither of us are gonna like it. And you're not going to get the outcome you want.

So how do you like to roll with that chaos? And I think. I don't want to criticize our profession, but I think we have a certain type of people and it's like, how do we teach ourselves to give up that very strict control? And whether it's, uh, like a micro level with patients or on a macro level in our, in our work environment or job environment where it's not like you go a, to B to C the, you get that job now.

It's like, okay, maybe we have to start creating some of our own opportunities. We have to have some innovation and that's much more uncomfortable. So, you know, improv improv has helped me to embrace those moments of discomfort or chaos or, or unknowns 

[00:13:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: your chemistry teacher told you you'll never be a baseball pitcher, but you ended up in pharmacy.

When was your first idea of saying 

[00:13:33] Cory Jenks, PharmD: improv? So I grew up watching a lot of Saturday night live and the Simpsons, and so I would come to school and just quote the quote, the episode from the night before, because that was back and forth. We could stream or DVR things. You had to watch it in real time. And so just with, amongst my friends and then I would, you know, I loved comedy and then I got to college and I was very pragmatic and like, I need to buckle down.

My job is at school. I need to focus. I mean, I went to the university of South Carolina, there's an improv student group there. I went to one of their shows. It was great. And I left there thinking I'd love to do that. And then I didn't do it because, well, I need to be focused on my studies and I, and I've, I think looking back and I think now, and for those listening, maybe you're a few or a pharmacy student or a pharmacist.

Like I think it's super important to not have everything tied up in pharmacy. Like you've got to have some of these other outlets. So I think the, and I watched whose line is it anyway as a kid? So I was exposed to improvisation. And so in college was like my first taste of like, oh, I would like to do this and then I didn't do it.

You said you 

[00:14:35] Mike Koelzer, Host: couldn't do it. It wasn't just a time factor though. It was saying that I'm not that kind of personal mobile. 

[00:14:41] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I think that in my head it was like, I'm the kind of person that my job is at school. Uh, I was, I w I, you know, I would, I had a nice group of friends in pharmacy school, and I would make jokes during class and write little, like, funny things.

Cause I, I enjoyed making light of, you know, making light of the ridiculous things that sometimes can happen in pharmacy school. And I was more outgoing. I really enjoy giving presentations and talks. So when everyone else was like, freaking out about a 10 minute talk, I was like, this is great. I get to go up and make a couple of jokes.

Maybe, you know, keep people and, you know, pharmacists as a whole, we could be better at presenting. So keeping people engaged in pharmacy school, Uh, a pretty low bar. And so I need all of those things. Right. So I, and I think that was a bit of a self limiting idea of like, well, I can't do this fun thing because I have to do these hard, difficult things.

And then once I finished my degree, then I could walk a little, do a residency, but then after that, I'll really let myself enjoy myself. You did think that 

[00:15:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: someday you would do that. You saw it and you didn't say, it's not for me. You said maybe 

[00:15:43] Cory Jenks, PharmD: just not now. Right. I said, you know, someday I'll take an improv class.

So yeah. So it was, it was, it was a seed planted in my head. I just was like, well, I'll never, I don't have any time for this. But so then I got, I graduated from my residency and my now wife then girlfriend was like, my birthday was cut up and it was like guitar lessons or improv. And if you would see the way I play my guitar, you'd understand that I did take the improv lessons and it just kind of, it turned into, it was a it's, it's a local theater.

I still perform out here. And I took a class and another class and he was just getting it going. So it was like, you have a pulse, you've been through classes you want to perform low performing. My wife was in a nurse practitioner school at the time, so she was really busy. So I joke that I got to have my improv master's degree, uh, during those three years.

Because I was studying every night. So I just went and performed three, four or five nights a week. Yeah. Just was down there all the time. Coaching, teaching, performing, uh, really immersed myself in it. 

[00:16:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: I always thought years ago that it might be a teacher. And I realized I hate teaching. I hate it with my team here, like if we go through, if we go through, let's say every year, maybe for the last 25 years, I've hired maybe five, eight people a year.

A lot of part-time people that are then gone the next year and so on. If I have to hire like two of them at a time. And if I have to say the same thing on. Day drives me crazy. I get so bored with myself. I hate hearing myself talk and you look at these stars. Like I was just watching some Billy Joel on YouTube last night.

And he said that he knew when he had to maybe stop performing, when he was playing his song, just the way you are, you know, and he would, he would sing the first phrase. And then he would say, I wonder what I'm going to have for dinner tonight. And then he would say the second phrase. And he said, I wonder if the, you know, the deli downstairs still has, um, you know, roast beef and said, you know, this is mine was like all over the place.

It seems to me that stand-up comedy is kind of like teaching or like Billy Joel on stage where you've got a, you know, unless you're throwing your material out each year. Some of those guys are saying the same stuff from, you know, 15, 20 years. And it seems like improv is like the opposite of that. Have you thought of it?

Stand up versus improv. 

[00:18:07] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Certainly. And I think that to give the best standup comedians there, they are getting new material constantly. Like if you, you know, I listened to a lot of podcasts with comedians and for like, anyone comes out with a Netflix special, it's like that's a year or two of development to put that one special app.

[00:18:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. If they're coming out with that year, that's a ton of work. A lot of them are really throwing it away and coming out each year with it. 

[00:18:30] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. So I think that that could, and I've done a little bit of the only standup I've done is actually we have an improvised stand-up show here in Tucson. I've done it a couple of times.

And so they just fill, throw you a suggestion and you have to come up with standup material on the spot. So that was really my speed. But improvisation, I explained this because like, I'll tell my parents or my friends, like we have rehearsal tonight and they're like, it's all made up. What are you rehearsing?

And so the way the analogy I use is like, it's like a basketball game. You have certain rules, like yes. And is a rule of improvisation. Uh, we, one of our general rules is you don't ask. It was just saying statements so that instead of, if I ask you what's going on today in an improv scene, you're like, well, I've provided nothing and now I've put everything on you to come up with the ideas.

So we work on these little skills and so improve. It's like a sport, basketball, baseball, football, whatever you're into because you have these certain guidelines and rules that you're supposed to follow, but every game is going to be different. Like within like every basketball game ever gave him the NBA 60 minutes, but anything can happen within that 60 minutes.

And no two games are ever going to be alike. And the improv scene is very similar because you have these, we have different formats. You can do it. You can have little short games, like whose line is it anyway? We have ones where people will tell a story and we improvise off the story. I'm on a team where we do improvised rapping, and then we use our wrapping to develop our scenes.

The same structure, same rules, but every, every show is going to be different. Now, what if 

[00:19:50] Mike Koelzer, Host: Was it the same though? What if you like, even with this year special? Okay. Yeah. You're special. And the guy builds, like I know it tastes like it's kind of like animation, you know, it takes like a month to do like seven minutes or something.

What if you had to like, save the same joke, like 30 days in a row. Does that hold any desire for you or is it really different improv and stand up, stand up in the, in the traditional sense of memorizing a joke and saying it night after night for at least a month 

[00:20:20] Cory Jenks, PharmD: for a year. I think that because I have my pharmacist brain and I do, I do like, despite the fact that I do improv, I do like routine.

You can ask my wife, uh, all about my idiosyncrasies. Like I think I could be happy doing either. I've just chosen this improv path. The barrier to entry is a lot lower than to go down the standup route. There's a lot of late night open mics that I'm like, I have a kid now, so I don't want to be out at midnight on a Tuesday.

Like I gotta go to work the next day I have a kid at home. Uh, but I think I could see a world where if, if you it's easy for me to say, not in the mode where I have to go out there and say the same thing, 30 nights in a row, but every audience is different and every reaction is going to be different. And the mood of the crowd is that I was always going to be different.

And so you can take that. You can take the attitude and maybe this is my yes. And attitude is like, you can take the attitude. Oh my gosh, it's the same thing over and over again. Or you take the attitude, oh, there's a new group of people here tonight to see this joke. They really appreciate the joke that you could have that gratitude that if, if someone's paying you to do jokes, the same jokes for 30 nights in a row, you've made it at some, some level.

Like, I think I can watch the same episodes of Seinfeld over and over again, or the Simpsons or SNL. Still works. So, uh, that, that to me would be, uh, like, oh, I've made it a little bit. I think I was 

[00:21:36] Mike Koelzer, Host: watching Seinfeld, a documentary on him one time and he was saying that it could have been someone else, but they were saying that in the old days, let's say you didn't have a special out.

And there was no YouTube and not as much social and things like that. You could use a joke forever for years and years. And now, sometimes a comedian will repeat it on purpose because it's like playing a song over. But, but we're, it gets around pretty quickly now. 

[00:22:03] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Oh yeah. That's definitely created a different level of, um, of challenge for stand-ups or for any company for any media.

But I also think that as consumers of media, we're in a pretty, pretty golden age. I mean, you have YouTube, Hulu, Netflix, net, you know, the networks you have all these avenues, then what's cool is like, if you like a comedian, you can reach out to them via Twitter or Instagram or their Facebook page or whatever.

You can have these interactions with the people that you really admire and. It's very parallel, I think to the professional world where like, I, I, you know, you saw something of mine on LinkedIn. I reached out to you and we commented to each other, we're having this conversation. And so this like world where we've created a much smaller world, I think it helps to create more opportunities, both comedically for those in that world.

And I think professionally for us, if I may parallel it, because before, you know, in our profession, it was like, you know, you go down one path to go down another path and it's like, that's what you got. But now you have pharmacists creating all kinds of different businesses and innovations because they have these interests and it's easier to share them.

And so, you know, I see you doing this. I'm like, oh, that would be cool to talk about what I think is a useful set of skills for a business and pharmacy. And then maybe somebody hears this and is like, oh yeah, I'd never thought of that. So this is as bad as the internet can be like stealing your time and like angry people on it.

I think that created this huge opportunity, especially for our profession to, to grow it and innovate to, to new levels, to new, to new, uh, to new operators. 

[00:23:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, that's a myth. The whole thing about, about the internet being a bad thing. Cause you know, all the stories about how years ago, you know, they didn't want to have paper because they are even, you know, rock cave man thing, because they said that you would lose the art of storytelling and then, then you didn't want this because you would lose this and lose that.

And it's kind of like how the Bible talks about money. I guess money's fine. It might be a certain desire you have for it, but it's how you use it in certainly Dolly the internet. Now it really is the first time in history that it's. I tell my kids. I'm like, you guys don't even know it was the first time in history that first of all, you don't have to get through a producer or an editor or things like that.

And then secondly, a free distribution. So it's just a crazy, 

[00:24:22] Cory Jenks, PharmD: crazy time. I think it's yeah, if you're, if you're good and your message connects with people, they're going to hear it and then you will grow your audience. Well, 

[00:24:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: That's what it takes to be good. And it's similar to, uh, you know, it's like a really pure sport, like soccer.

I mean, if you're good at soccer, you're good at soccer because it's so pure and you don't have to be rich or perhaps everything that you would need for something like fencing or downhill skiing or something like that. I mean, that is a pure sport. Just like the internet raises now up that purity of people who are 

[00:24:53] Cory Jenks, PharmD: good.

Yeah. Yeah. If you have the, the definite, you know, people that have grown themselves in. There's also the crowd, that's doing their weird thing somewhere over on the dark web or whatever we have and they get their crowd too. Yeah, exactly. There's something for everyone. I 

[00:25:07] Mike Koelzer, Host: know that you're waiting for all this and you're listening and you're tracking the eyes and all this kind of stuff.

But when you've got a good zinger that you know is coming up, that you've remembered from this topic, you know, going to the moon, whatever, whatever the thing is. And you've got a good joke for that. Are you like I'm storing this one up or do you say I'm going to challenge myself and not even go there?

I'm not even going to use that because I really want to pay attention. Which one are you doing? 

[00:25:37] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I think that it depends on the show and the audience, my improv answer is I'm going to, I'm going to sit on that. If it is, I'm going to do what best serves the scene. 

[00:25:44] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Your selflessness is going to give it to the team and 

[00:25:46] Cory Jenks, PharmD: see what happens.

And sometimes, but sometimes like say that there's a scene going on and it's like, not funny at all. It's been like a minute. It's like, I need to come out and just say something funny and then we can end it. We, you know, we buttoned the scene with a joke. The audience feels good. Uh, but, but if you come out and you start selling out really soon, and let's the thing is like, we learn these and it's, you know, you learn these rules to break the rules.

Like sometimes we ask questions in scenes. Sometimes we start very, very. 

[00:26:13] Mike Koelzer, Host: You're not supposed to answer the question you just said, you're not supposed to ask a couple, put your you're breaking that 

[00:26:19] Cory Jenks, PharmD: rule. You're just, you're, you're doing it intentionally because it's not going anywhere. Right. Or, or it serves the scene.

So sometimes, I mean, there have been scenes where I'm in it where I'm like, I realized, like, I don't know what's happening right now. So I will just say in the middle of it. So tell me exactly who you are and what are we doing here? Because if I like, I don't know what's going on. The audience's like clueless.

And so, and then I think the audience really appreciates when you were like real with them and you're like, oh, well it appears that they don't know what they're doing right now, too. So 

[00:26:51] Mike Koelzer, Host: it's a question, but it's not a question. Like, why are you on a racetrack right now? Or something like that. It's a broad question to bring things, to bring 

[00:26:59] Cory Jenks, PharmD: things back.

I get back to that base reality. Find out the who, what and where of what's going on. And then you can reset and push that scene forward again. All right. 

[00:27:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: So, Corey, yes. Where would you like to go with this? Where would you like to be? If, all of a sudden the world word gets out that Cory's the best improv guy in the world, where would you go with this in five years?

[00:27:24] Cory Jenks, PharmD: So I'm glad you asked that question because I really think that does bring it back around to pharmacy. And so I've thought about like, I, I'm pretty, pretty good at improv. Uh, I live in Tucson. It's not a hotbed of comedy. Like we have a pretty decent comedy scene. I have a kid, I have another on the way in June.

So like thank you. Yeah. Uh, I always have to give that plug for my unborn kid, like he's coming. Um, so like the idea of like, if I wanted to make a career of comedy, get on SNL, be on sitcoms. Like you're going to LA, you're going to Chicago. You're going to New York. I'm not doing that. I, I, I love my life here in Tucson.

And so this is where I was kinda thinking like, where do I take my improv to the next step? And that's when I circled it all back to, like I realized, like as a pharmacist, I became much more comfortable. As I progressed through my improv training and realized that I was applying these skills as a pharmacist.

And so my goal, if I like in five years, like I've started my business, is to improve RX. And so I go, and I do these seminars, these workshops, these training sessions, for like five years. I would love to be known as the person that could come into your team, whether it's a pharmacy, a hospital, you know, any business, really. I was at an accounting firm, uh, this past week and helped to create a clear vision for your employees, make them more engaged, help develop those soft skills so that they're more effective.

They're happier employees. They're a better, stronger team. So five years from now, I'd love to be known as the pharmacist, improviser, who can come and apply these skills to your team. And I would love to be known at it as right now, too, but that's, that's, that's where I've decided to, to push my improv training because I can, you know, I want to live here in Tucson.

I like being a pharmacist, uh, but I'm not ready to, I'm like, I'm not going to uproot my family to go pursue this. Idea of being in a sitcom. I, that's not, that's not what I want to do with it. And I'm comfortable with that. 

[00:29:14] Mike Koelzer, Host: It's like a big fish in a smaller pond too. 

[00:29:16] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. And I think that, you know, I'm not at this point, like I'm, I'm okay.

Traveling to other places too. Like I I'm, I want to go do this wherever there's a need, whether it's in Michigan, whether it's in South Carolina where I went to college, I I'm, I'm happy to go where the need is. And I think that Tucson, you know, uh, is I really see an opportunity, especially with the healthcare scene here in Tucson, we have a large university.

We have a lot of trading here. That is, there's a lot of theaters that do this training. And I think that I can come at it with my experience, my professional experience as a pharmacist, my experience in dealing with some of these life or death situations and how it has served me well, to make me a more comfortable speaker to make me a.

Uh, empathetic listener with my patients. And so, you know, I, I, I love my, my two, it Tucson ends. And I think that there's there's opportunities here, but there's opportunities all over the world. That's 

[00:30:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: really strange because if I would think about somebody who said, they're a comedian, you know, that'd be the easiest way to say it, you know, because people maybe don't say it correctly, improv and things like that.

One would tend to think they're going to be the worst listener. That's what I came from as being, not a real nice person. And in high school, trying to always go for a cheap thing to say that a comedian is like the best listener. It's really cool. It's really strange to think about, because Corey, we didn't talk before this.

I didn't know who I was going to find that in their line of this. You know, I didn't know if it was going to be Rodney Dangerfield on the other line or her Don Rickles or something. But to think that someone in comedy is one of the best listeners you've talked to is, is really 

[00:31:09] Cory Jenks, PharmD: amazing. Thank you. That's a high compliment and I have to give a lot of credit to my, the theater, and my friends that have trained me along the way as well.

And I, I can't speak for every, you know, comedian. I think that we get some people that do stand up that come and want to learn how to improve so they can do like crowd work and can be more comfortable with that. And they aren't as good at the beginning because they are very focused on that punchline on that joke.

Uh, and then sometimes we get people who have done theater and they really struggled with letting go of that control. A lot of improv is letting go of control, but I find that people that do really well at improv people say, oh, I'm not funny. I can never improve. I'm like, if you are not too smart, anyone can improv, but like, we have a lot of people in our company that are nurses, doctors, engineers, uh, scientists, Just say it.

You have to be smart. If you are smart, it serves you well, if you're smart, as it should be, well, I'm going to, I will be as diplomatic with that as possible, but because you, because you can follow rules, you learn how to listen and you can learn these things. And we mentioned how improv comes like Drake comedy comes from a place of truth.

Well, people bring their own life experiences into scenes. So someone who's like works at our, um, engineering plant here in Tucson building rockets. Like they're going to have a whole nother perspective on a scene about rockets or going to the moon than I am as a pharmacist. And I'll tell you what, when people, you know, my teammates love to push me into things where I'm a pharmacist and I'm like, great.

I can do this all night long. Because I do it all day long, too. Right. We drive on those personal histories. 

[00:32:42] Mike Koelzer, Host: You were able to do this full time. Speaking, that kind of stuff. Maybe some traveling, would you quit the practice of farming? That is 

[00:32:53] Cory Jenks, PharmD: something that I've had discussions with with my wife about. And I mean, this is I'm so far, I'm so early into this and I really appreciate you having someone who's early in their business ventures onto your podcast.

You've had some wonderful people there. Love 

[00:33:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: it. You get the truth out of 

[00:33:07] Cory Jenks, PharmD: people. You know, I think that I always want to have a toe in the practice of pharmacy because I think it helps me relate to the challenges that businesses face and the challenges that other healthcare workers face. Now, what that means as a practicing pharmacist, if it means that I'm full time around the country speaking and doing this or that, and then I'm doing a per diem work somewhere so that I'm still practicing as a pharmacist, then that's what it looks like.

If it means that I am so successful. Goodness. That would be phenomenal if I'm so successful that I don't have time to, to do pharmacy will then maybe that's the path that it becomes. I think that part of improv is helping me let go of this, this, this idea that I've clung to. And I think that we sometimes are like, well, I'm going to do this job for this long.

I'm going to beat, it's going to be like this. And then I'll stop doing this. And, you know, having a kid has really helped me get rid of this idea that I have any control over anything, but it's, it's, it's helped me embrace that unknown, embrace that chaos a little bit. And it's, I'm not anywhere near that yet, but if it comes to that point, you know, my, my wife's a nurse practitioner.

And so she's, she's still in healthcare and she's incredibly supportive of what I'm trying to do. And so if it comes to that point, then it comes to that point and I don't do pharmacy and I do this and then maybe I come back to pharmacy or. As I said, I do some sort of a DM-ing that's so far down the road, or maybe it's closer than I think he's closer than I think.

And then I'll make that choice and I'll, I'll be at peace with that just as an individual pharmacist. I've gone from managing a Coumadin clinic during the day to teaching an improv class at night and students are afraid of making a mistake. And I'm like, guys, you have this wonderful opportunity to make a mistake to learn.

Whereas like I was training in our Coumadin clinic and like, you can't make mistakes with blood thinners. Like you just, you can't, it's very, you know, and I'm not advocating for it. Let's make some mistakes with warfarin to find out how, no, I don't know. Like we do things very meticulously, but as a pharmacist, like when I started doing these classes, it was so liberating to come to a place for two hours every week where you go and you're supported and you can make these mistakes, these mistakes or errors, and you will learn from it.

And it's totally disposable, like improv, disposable. You say something, you should've done something different. Great. We'll do it again. And there's no consequences. And so I think that pharmacists, healthcare workers, like anyone that works, you know, human beings, we have very high stakes with what we're doing, whether it's raising children, your job, your finances.

So you can go and play on stage for two hours and learn skills and have fun. And if you mess up, well, it's a learning opportunity. It's not a mistake. And that's, I think something that I've really taken from improv is how can I learn from all of these experiences in life and healthcare 

[00:35:52] Mike Koelzer, Host: pharmacy? Let me quiz you on that then Corey.

Okay. So you were brought up like a Coumadin clinic, for example, obviously somewhere that you, the end product has to be true and complete and accurate and so on. And you said make the mistakes for two hours at an improv clinic. Can you make that leap though to say, all right, the person is, you're just giving a talk.

Let's say to the, to the group of whoever it is, Where is that leap of the Coumadin clinic? Can you do things? Can you improve there? I mean, besides the stage, can you improve yet at the end, you have to have this perfect product. Yeah. I 

[00:36:34] Cory Jenks, PharmD: think that it actually is imperative that we are able to improvise in a situation where, whether it's Coumadin, whether it's adjusting insulin with patients, because pharmacists like credit to all the pharmacists coming out now, like they are so smart, you know, like pharmacists have never learned more.

There's never been more opportunities to be board certified to get these, these, uh, these, these certifications that you are really good at X, Y, and Z. And I think pharmacists are by and large, excellent at these hard skills. So Coumadin adjustments, insulin titrations. I've no worries about that, but we're this , these improvisation skills come into place when you call your, your diabetes patient and they, their wife, had passed away yesterday.

And so pharmacists bring like, well, we need to go over our blood sugar numbers, but empathize with pharmacists really. We don't see, they don't care about their blood sugars right now. Let's listen to them, see how they're doing so that the next time I call them, they're going to want to trust me, because imagine if you were in a situation where there's a huge life stress going on.

And I think that maybe I'm too nice sometimes, but I just understand, like when I call a patient and they're like, well, I didn't get my blood drawn or I didn't get this, but I had, my kid was sick or this or that. And people like I've been on the other end of it where the doctor is like, well, it's your health.

You need to do this. Yes, yes. Most people know that most patients know that, but how come, how can I adjust my appointment to meet the needs of where they're at today? So that the next time that I talked to them, they're going to be more apt to listen to me when I'm like, you got to get your A1C checked or you've got to come get your sugar numbers, because sometimes you've just got to be able to put yourself in the patient's shoes or be able to listen to what's really happening with.

And meet them at the goals where, where they're at now, like with warfarin, it's like, whoa, I'm getting 10 salads a day now. Okay. Just tell me next time. You know, I want to help you. I want you to eat 10 healthy foods today because there's a lot of fiber. So you probably got to get off the phone soon, 

[00:38:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: but it's like, yeah, right 

[00:38:31] Cory Jenks, PharmD: before something is, let's get to you.

Let's take care of what we need. So it's, to me, it's like, I'm not teaching. I don't do a lot of, uh, talks on hard skills, I do a little, I do some lifestyle, diabetes talks, uh, I'm really into that. But a lot of what I'm trying to teach is how do you take what's in here? Get it out of your mouth. I'm pointing at my head, get it out your mouth, get into someone else's ears and into their heart.

So they care about that. That's my big 

[00:38:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: thing. I did a show a while back, we were talking about adherence and your point is not a small point about the dynamics of someone's life, because I think it's like. I do so much better on their animals than they do on themselves. You know, they don't stuff up for themselves.

There's all this, all this stuff going on, doubting the doctor, doing this, you know, not caring about themselves as much and all that stuff. So it's like 90% not what's on paper. It's like those soft skills. When I hear soft skills, the first thing I'm thinking about is how to manage someone softly.

But boy, the patients, it makes total sense if you were talking about the patients really being part of those soft skills. Yeah. And 

[00:39:44] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I, and I think that sometimes us in, in pharmacy or nursing my voice, like I said, nurse practitioner, physicians, anybody, we have this training, we have this extensive training and when someone doesn't want to listen to us, one was like, well, I'm the expert.

I should know everything. But like, I don't know everything about that person. And I look at, I try to again, think of things in the big picture. So we've had these issues with generic drug recalls, all we've been saying forever. Take the generic, trust us, trust us, trust us. And now it's like, well, you can still mostly trust us, but, so how do we, you know, w we have to understand that when patients question us, they're not just some of them are being jerks, but sometimes they're just being curious, humans that look at the data themselves and say, well, you've been saying one thing, but another thing has been happening or with my diabetes, you've been telling me to a certain way, but I keep gaining weight.

So maybe I should try something different. So instead of taking these like questions, you know, when we were questioned, instead of taking it as like this upfront, we asked, like, I, yes, I had it like, oh yeah, I agree. Like, yeah, I agree. You would, I would be upset if I've been taking my blood pressure pill and all of a sudden it could have a carcinogenic and I like, I would be upset and let's find a solution for you.

So now am I going to fix every little problem each time? No, but that patient now is like, oh, this guy, he cares. He listens. He understands, he didn't think. But he acknowledged that there's an issue here versus every other doctor that doesn't listen to me. 

[00:41:10] Mike Koelzer, Host: They're not listening. 

[00:41:11] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. That's the biggest thing I get with patients, that my biggest, the biggest satisfaction I have with them is like, I actually listened to what they're talking about.

I don't always, I can't like we can't always fix every health issue. Right. We have a limited amount of control. We can always agree to listen to what's happening to them. And that is a great step in developing that rapport and trust so that when we have that opportunity to make that intervention, they're going to be more likely to want to listen to what we have to say.

[00:41:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: Approach is really close to, um, the psychology. What they call dialectical behavioral therapy. And that's someone who's just really either they've got borderline personality disorder or they've got a real rigid disorder. They just really need to see things in black and white. You know, maybe the black part of it is something that happened in childhood and the white part is something they, they think they should be doing, but they just avoid both of them because, or I'll say go to one side of the other, but that grayness, we need to spend a lot of time in the gray.

I think that we're not that we're not spending in the gray. Maybe not morally, I suppose, but besides that, a lot of stuff has to be gray in life. 

[00:42:23] Cory Jenks, PharmD: That was, I think the biggest shock to me when I finished pharmacy school and started practicing was like, I went into this profession of pharmacy where it's like, well, you just follow the treatment algorithms or the guidelines.

And it's like this. And there was so much gray at pharmacy school. And I love my Alma mater and I think that's most pharmacy, new pharmacist grads are like, we're not prepared for all that gray area. All those decisions that are, could go this way or could go that way. What's the best choice? And I'm almost a decade into my career.

And there are still a lot of times where you struggle with things like the in-between of, of, of the, of that gray zone. And so with a patient it's just about finding what their, their motivations are, what they care about and, and trying to try and start making those little changes. 

[00:43:04] Mike Koelzer, Host: I think maybe naturally that greatness part of that is because we might just throw this out there, but because we don't have provider status where a lot of times we're not making that final decision.

There's a lot of, a lot of greatness. I know I wouldn't be used to it, I wouldn't be real comfortable with it in the healthcare scene, I suppose. Oh, certainly. 

[00:43:25] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. And it's, again, learning improvisation has helped me learn to dance with that. And to really, I'll be honest, the patients sometimes, you know, when I'm adjusting their meds, I'll say we could do option A, we could do option B. I'm okay.

With either one. What are you most comfortable with? Like putting that option, you know, empowering the patient to help guide both of us through this gray zone of what it might be, because oftentimes there isn't just one right answer. There's a lot of wrong ones. As long as we don't pick any of those wrong ones, we can, we can get down the road the right way.

[00:43:56] Mike Koelzer, Host: Here's the thing though. Ambiguity has been our evolution. If you want a lot of security and you're a caveman sitting in a cave, if you're doing something as, uh, a Mulberry Bush or a, a lion, and you're not sure 

[00:44:13] Cory Jenks, PharmD: you are on the side of. You're on the side of 

[00:44:15] Mike Koelzer, Host: caution. And so yet you sit in there and your brother who doesn't mind ambiguity, they're the ones that goes out and says, no, it's, I'm not sure what it is.

I think it's a Mulberry Bush until they get eaten. Well, now that genetic line has gone. So we're really, we're really set up for that. We humans don't really like ambiguity. 

[00:44:35] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I agree. Yeah. I think pharmacists, especially like, we know, we like to know what the next step is. We like to know what the next day holds and, and it's just the reality of life is we, we can't, we can't know everything.

And so how can we work with what we know and learn to react appropriately to the things that we don't know, uh, react calmly, react with sound, mind, uh, react in a, in a good team manner. And I think that's obviously I'm out here talking about improv, so I'm going to be, be spouting the benefits of it, but it teaches you to live in that ambiguity and to then make a bold choice because we say an improv death and improv is a medium of choice.

So if you like. Mild move or a pretty boring character, if you're not sure why, it's not clear what your character really wants, the scene is going to be boring. But if you make a strong choice, like we're on the moon and we're out of oxygen, then boom, we're there. It's a great union. You've cut right to the interesting part.

What 

[00:45:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: was the phrase that you said being 

[00:45:31] Cory Jenks, PharmD: what is being, what? Oh, death and improv is a medium choice. 

[00:45:35] Mike Koelzer, Host: Death in improv is a medium choice. 

[00:45:37] Cory Jenks, PharmD: So you want to make a full 

[00:45:38] Mike Koelzer, Host: choice and you're like, well, we don't, we don't know we're going to do so we're going to sit here for a few days until Houston calls us. Well, now, now the story's dead.

[00:45:48] Cory Jenks, PharmD: It's like we have 30 seconds. We'll look, we might have more, but that could be the reaction to it's like, thank goodness. I don't want to go on anymore. The moon is so boring. I'd rather die than be up here anymore. Like that would be a bold choice. Like you wouldn't expect it and you're like, you're on the moon.

That should be great. It's like, thank goodness. Well, this'll be over in 30 seconds. Uh, but if it was like, well, you know, if we have 30 seconds, it could be, you know, maybe we'll fix it, but if not, it's fine. Or, or if it's like, no, I need to keep going. I really want to, I want to see the other side of the moon.

I'm gonna see the dark side of the moon. Right. Uh, then you have a strong place to then build off of it. But if you're, if you're unsure of how you feel than the other than the scene, kind of just fizzles out. If you're unsure how you feel, you, you, you you'll make a medium choice instead of a bold choice, 

[00:46:30] Mike Koelzer, Host: You'll make a medium choice because you want to have your feet on both sides.

You don't want to make that choice. 

[00:46:35] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. And I think that this is a way of approaching life choices to this idea of like, heck yes or no, my wife and I have been working on that a lot. Because we'll get decision fatigue. So if, uh, like a friend's like, you want to go have dinner tomorrow night together. If we're like, eh, then it's usually a no, but for like, oh, heck yeah, we haven't seen them in a long time.

Like that helps you, you know, make that, that strong choice. I've had this with a couple of choices in my career when I've taken jobs where I was like, I think I want this. And so I did it and I turned out, I really didn't like that hesitancy was me saying what stand pat from. So I think that that's a way I've, I've brought the, the bold choice of improv into how do I make bold choices in my life when appropriate, right.

If there's a lion outside, like heck guests, I'm staying in the cave. Uh, so I'll make that strong choice to, for safety people don't make 

[00:47:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: choices because they're afraid of the consequences. Maybe they're afraid of failure. Would that be fair to say? 

[00:47:30] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Absolutely. Yeah. Is there 

[00:47:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: any night that you would walk away or somebody would walk away from the theater if let's say you were alive.

And they said, I broke the rules. I failed. What would, what would it mean if you fail to 

[00:47:42] Cory Jenks, PharmD: improv? I think if you failed, you would negate what your scene partners were saying. You would not listen to what was happening and kind of come in with your own ideas. You'd have a really flat, boring character. You would not say every word as if it was worth the price of emission.

We say like every word worth the price of admission you would make flat boring words you'd seem disinterested. You wouldn't support the ideas that your teammates did. Uh, you'd ask a lot of very vague questions. And so I would say that would be a failure that, and, uh, just objectively being offensive on purpose, I think it would be a failure to, uh, I think we try to keep things as PG 13, we'll say as much as possible.

[00:48:24] Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. That's interesting. Because as you described to that person, they're in business, I would describe that person as a jerk or, or whatever, but quite often we don't label that person as a freight. That person that you described right now in improv somebody that would do what you were just talking about right now, what would be the deep feeling of that person?

Would you 

[00:48:55] Cory Jenks, PharmD: think they'd be bad teammates? Why? Because it's the, they would be making selfish choices. Are they afraid 

[00:49:06] Mike Koelzer, Host: or are they just might be selfish? 

[00:49:08] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Oh, I think I've performed some selfish assholes. So that would be one, one flavor. I think the person that's afraid might not even step into a scene.

Really. I think the fear, the fear and improv it's I think you're going to get a different response. It's just, they're going to be more timid. They'll make more medium choices. I wouldn't even call them a failure though, because if they're afraid of getting on stage and they get onstage and they do improv scenes, even if they're not funny and even if they're not perfect and heck I know I've done plenty of very not perfect improv scenes, but if they're overcoming that fear of simply being in front of a crowd and making things up, I call them a success.

But if you are onstage and you've known the rules and you're ignoring them and you're being selfish, that's what I would call a failure. So I don't think fear is necessarily as much of a factor as the attitude and selfishness versus willing to be a supporting teammate. 

[00:49:59] Mike Koelzer, Host: The selfishness of F would be a failure.

Yes. Because the other one you'd be learning and the crowd would get something out of it. It just wouldn't be as good maybe, but it's not gonna, it's not going to fail and stop as much as a selfish person, not asking the, and you know, the yes. Statements and 

[00:50:16] Cory Jenks, PharmD: so on. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that now I would consider that if, if you get over your fear, but you're still making the same mistakes, you're not making a bold choice.

You're not clearly identifying who the who, what, and where is going on. And these things continue for years. Then, then I would consider this just a failure of learning to, to adapt and to learn, uh, at that. That's, that's kind of where you're at. I 

[00:50:39] Mike Koelzer, Host: Imagine that you're going to teach a lot of different sized audiences and in different settings and all that kind of stuff.

But if you had like a half hour, all of a sudden, they said, Corey, you're going to be on national TV some night with a half-hour special about teaching the value of improv to business people in their daily life. And so on. What would that half hour be, and you could only do a half hour. What would that half hour look like for a crowd sitting at home?

Would you start off with a skid all of a sudden, or would you start off talking or what would you do for a half hour that you had to teach the world about this? I would 

[00:51:25] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Involve the crowd immediately because I think the value of improvisation is to understand that anybody can do it and that anybody can apply these skills.

Right. Um, so I might start with like a minute of like, I'm, you know, introduced who I am, what I'm there to do. Right. I want to make sure the audience out there knows what the purpose of today's 30 minutes is. And then I'm going to say, by the end of tonight, I'm going to convince you that anybody can improvise and that everyone will benefit from learning what the tools of improv are.

And then I would just get people from the audience up on stage and we play improv games. And that's what I do when I do these workshops. 

[00:52:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: Are we right away? You, you would do that the 

[00:52:05] Cory Jenks, PharmD: improv 30 minutes. Yeah. You jumped right to the interesting part right away. That's one of our improv rules. Let's get to the interesting part as soon as you can.

That's interesting. Cause I, I actually did a CE on this for our state association last year. I did an improv CE. Yeah. And I did a lot more lecturing and I did get people involved. So we had pharmacists coming up and they were being funny. So pharmacists, we are funny. I promise you. And we were smiling and people were laughing and they weren't crying.

Yeah. And a lot of people get that anxiety in front of crowds. So it was 30 minutes. Like, let's get up here, let's start playing some games and I'll explain. And as we play these games, that's what, when I explained, like we played this game called I'll use a real game, we played zips apps out. Here's what we learned.

Here's what we used. Here's what you can learn from it. Great. Next game. We're going to play a game called protests. Here's what we're going to play it. We played it. Here's what we did. Here's what we learned. How did that feel for those who did it? Great. Let's play another game. And so we, we can, we can get up and play a few of these activities to, to put into use because I, and I love talking about improv, as you can tell, we've been going over an hour and yeah, but I think the, the real bread and butter of it comes when you do it, or you experience it or you're in a live show and you feel the energy of it as well.

So lecturing for 30 minutes, wouldn't be as powerful as seeing people just. It 

[00:53:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: seems that if you do it yourself, that would be a really good experience. If you see somebody do it and it's tied into business, like you saying, the zip zap, zap, you, you learned this from it and you saw it. How much do they benefit by being an observer?

Like I'm at home. Yeah. I'm watching this half hour. I'm never going to do improv. Let's say someone says that I'll never do improv. Can they learn from just watching it or is the next step to say you should join Corey's online, you know, two hours something or other, can they learn much just from watching it?

[00:54:07] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Number one is yes. And so if the audience sitting at home takes that to heart, they're going to agree to listen to what is taught and apply what they did. So I think that if they really take that lesson too. They can learn from observing it. And I think that the participants that are CE, uh, not everyone got to participate, you know, hands-on they learned and they, they appreciated it.

And the feedback was such that they were able to take those lessons and apply them to their, to their practice. I think doing it and feeling it is a great step because it helps you overcome that limiting belief that you maybe think you can't do something when you actually in fact can, but I know that, uh, I've, I've attended.

I attended, uh, an improv session when I was a student. We had a keynote speaker that did improv, and that was another one of my steps . I want to do that someday, but the audience members get a lot out of it. Even if they're not the, not everyone is doing the 

[00:55:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: games, even if they're not doing it, how much does the crowd change?

Something like, let's say that you came in. The office here. Okay. You come in here and you say there's three options. One is you put me in a soundproof booth with no cameras and you say, here's an improv thing. I'm going to lock all the doors. You can do it by yourself just, and you probably can't do it with one person, but let's say you're one person versus you being in a room with them versus saying, we're going to have one person is going to watch us what we're doing.

Does that throw it? If someone has an audience of even one? 

[00:55:37] Cory Jenks, PharmD: I think that for me, improv is a lot about energy. And so if you have a larger group, that audience helps tremendously. Yeah. I 

[00:55:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: didn't think about that. I was thinking of a negative part of it for someone nervous. 

[00:55:48] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah, no. And I, and I think that having that, that larger group makes it a more enriching experience.

It's that team environment that really can, can make it fun. But if you have an audience that's not engaged and you're not able to get them engaged, then it could be a detriment. Like I've done improv shows where we know that we did good improv and the audience was just like checked out. They weren't into it.

They weren't. Did you know, you came to a comedy show tonight because we did some funny stuff. Like we really were funny. Uh, but you can't control that. So, uh, but, but I think having the larger audience is for me, I enjoy that, but that's, I've, I've grown to like that. 

[00:56:25] Mike Koelzer, Host: If you went to a D to do an improv, and they said that they were all pharmacists, they went to a pharmacy event, but you weren't telling them you were teaching them.

You just said you were there as you didn't tell him you're a pharmacist. You just said you're an improv group. Would it be a terrible audience? The pharmacist, 

[00:56:44] Cory Jenks, PharmD: uh, I, if I don't want to get in trouble for future potential clients, I think, I think it would be, you know, I've actually done a show where a lot of pharmacists came and it was a lot of fun.

[00:56:57] Mike Koelzer, Host: You've been honest the whole time, Cory and now you're, and now you're back. It would be a 

[00:57:01] Cory Jenks, PharmD: little less rambunctious than other audiences then what are the groups 

[00:57:05] Mike Koelzer, Host: would match. Pharmacists. Is there anybody that would be worse? Oh gosh. I don't 

[00:57:11] Cory Jenks, PharmD: now. Probably like accountants, like folks that sit behind desks all day.

People that do like it work. Maybe I'm just kind of, are there more groups I could insult? Cause I could totally just keep naming 

[00:57:23] Mike Koelzer, Host: you either get a paper or a little study on distance education. 

[00:57:28] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yes. Long, long ago in pharmacy school. All right. 

[00:57:32] Mike Koelzer, Host: Here's the question. Yeah. You are living in Tucson. You don't want to move far from there, correct?

You've studied distant education. How can you put that to use, to do your improv classes online? I think 

[00:57:54] Cory Jenks, PharmD: that would be a little, it's just being quite honest with you. It'd be tougher to do that online versus in-person. I think that's something like we have going right now. If I was, you know, on a Skype call or whatever, you know, whatever platform you want.

And I was talking to a group of people. I think that if I had a physical facilitator there to help direct them around it, it could work. I think that the magic of improv and something that we kind of lament as improvisers as performers, is that it doesn't always translate to video quite as well.

Like you don't go and watch a lot of improv videos online. You see sketch comedy Saturday night live, et cetera. But I mentioned that energy earlier and improv is really a lot about the energy. Like, what are you getting from the audience? What are you getting from that person right across from you? What are you seeing in the eyes as they're, as you're looking at them.

And so not to paint myself into a corner and say that there's not a way to innovate. Oh, I think that you could, but to really keep people engaged, to keep them out of their comfort. Yeah. Is to, to be live and in person. What about whose 

[00:58:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: line is it anyway, did a great job. Now they want coaching. Is that what you're 

[00:58:58] Cory Jenks, PharmD: saying?

The differences. Oh yeah. They're performing live. And then we watched that, you know, they recorded it live. I think coaching would be more difficult to do that, to do that online. And then I think I'm just coming at it from a perspective like that live studio audience was big. So you had a lot of energy, so you could cut to the audience, whereas like most improv theaters hold 20 to 40 people.

So to get grainy video from far away, it doesn't translate. You know, we don't have a lot of, you know, improv videos online of, or performances per se. Yeah. So 

[00:59:31] Mike Koelzer, Host: there you go though. That's your, that's your marketplace hole that out and then you get to sun and then you're coaching all over the world via video.

That's great news that it's hard and it doesn't do well. And this and that, because then you can, you know, if they have those like improv video, like classes probably somewhere, 

[00:59:50] Cory Jenks, PharmD: right. I am being inspired by the second to, to, to investigate and look at myself, this is all about whatever I need is the magic of what's coming out of the other person's mouth and brain in front of me.

So 

[01:00:03] Mike Koelzer, Host: there's enough people that want to make that step, but they're not willing to say I can make that step to a class. You know, they're always lurking and by the video you're going to just like pull them 

[01:00:18] Cory Jenks, PharmD: in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think that's a lot of times that, that first step I saw it on the back of it, but like a bazooka Joe gum, I think it's like the first step is half the distance or it's probably some much more heady person than bazooka Joe, but yeah, people that take that first step into an improv class or people that, or businesses that take that step into having me come and talk.

There's a little bit of nerves with that because it's an, it's an abstract idea. Selling improv is a difficult thing because improv sort of not well known, but selling employee engagement and soft skill development is so, uh, but, but when, once those businesses take that leap or that person takes that leap, they find that they, they are capable of so much more than they thought there were self limiting beliefs of I'm not funny, I'm introverted.

I get nervous in front of crowds. It will either quickly or slowly melt away, depending on the person, but it will, it will show itself, your ability to interact will show itself through improvisation. 

[01:01:18] Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm just going to keep talking until I find something that you don't say yes to. And I'm pretty good at that.

It's like my first word is like, nah, yeah, that's not going to go. Yeah. Pharmacists who have heard this. Step by step to get acquainted with you. 

[01:01:34] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Okay. So you can find me on LinkedIn. You and I met on LinkedIn. Cory Jenks, uh, is where I'm at. If you like Twitter, I met Corey GenX, Pharm D uh, Instagram's a little bit more lighthearted.

So it's at pharma comedian, and I'm actually, uh, I have my website and prop rx.com is my business website. So you can go there and reach out to me directly. Um, Cory dot genx@gmail.com is another, another mode of getting a hold of me. And, and I, yeah, I want to work with pharmacists. I wanna work with doctors, nurses, any, any businesses that you think your employees could use some work on their soft skill development, their engagement, um, I'm, I'm here and I'm waiting.

I'm ready to go. And I'm excited for this, this newest chapter in my life to try to grow, because I've been doing this improv for seven years now, and I feel very comfortable with it. And it's like, how do I. Grow it, how do I get more people involved in it? And there's the performing side as I was telling you, but I love the training side because I think there's a need and there's definite outcomes 

[01:02:35] Mike Koelzer, Host: for it.

Yeah. It really sounds fascinating. It sounds like, boy, it sounds like something that pharmacists can use for inter-employee things and, and patients, and then just across the board and not to exclude just maybe becoming upgrade improv. Yeah. 

[01:02:51] Cory Jenks, PharmD: That's I didn't get into this expecting to become an improv improviser.

I wanted to just have some fun and it turned into this wonderful life skill that I had. And so, yeah, from this pharmacist side of things, I'll, I'll make a reference to it. There's an article in the American college of clinical pharmacy. I put it in my TL DR article. That GPA is not maybe the best measure of residency candidates coming out of pharmacy school.

They talk about work ethic, passion, adaptability, and communication. Personality fit. These are all, you know, soft skills that you can learn doing improvisation and develop them and create a strength in them. For yourself. 

[01:03:29] Mike Koelzer, Host: It's such a dichotomy that improv has very, very strict rules and you find your freedom.

In those rules, someone explained marriage like that. To me, one time it's like marriage has very strict rules where you value yourself to one person and so on. But through that very strict rule is where you really have that freedom to become who you're meant to be because you have that, that trust in the, in the system to grow and be yourself and fail and, and those kinds of things.

And you can break those rules. Sure. And it breaks your freedom by breaking, breaking a rule, breaks your immense freedom to be who you are and to grow in that point in time or a bigger 

[01:04:18] Cory Jenks, PharmD: point in time. So certainly, yeah, that's the thing that people are most surprised about is all the roles we talked about on the first day of an improv class or the, at an improv workshop that I do.

But again, like you say, it provides you that freedom to explore, to build, to grow and to focus on the things that are really important and not the things that are distracting. Hey, Corey was a real pleasure. Oh yeah. Thank you so much for having me and I, it was a blast talking to improv and pharmacy and parenting and everything we covered today.

[01:04:45] Mike Koelzer, Host: Really cool stuff. Yeah. Well, I'm going to be watching Corey. Okay. I'll either have to get down to Tucson there or I'm waiting for your YouTube training or your first special, like I talked about. 

[01:04:57] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Yeah. Well, the, the, the second I got something on YouTube, I'm going to send it your way, so 

[01:05:02] Mike Koelzer, Host: we'll watch it. And then we'll talk again in a year and you can see if I'm a better listener.

[01:05:06] Cory Jenks, PharmD: It sounds great. You're, you're a fine listener today. I assure you. You are well on your way to being a fine improviser. Should you choose? Well, 

[01:05:12] Mike Koelzer, Host: The listener doesn't know this, but I'm going to cut all the places in here where I've interrupted you. In fact, I think what I'm going to do now that I think about it is because I can manipulate all this, you know, Just the same way I do people and I'm going to put like a three-second pause before every one of my responses 

[01:05:34] Cory Jenks, PharmD: to make it.

Yeah, you really 

[01:05:36] Mike Koelzer, Host: Have you been cutting me off all the time? I always want to come out looking better. 

[01:05:41] Cory Jenks, PharmD: Hey, you're the host. I'm in a mirror. I bought a mere guest here. Uh, I am at your service and at your debt of gratitude for having me on your, a mere guest. I'm Amir 's guest. Yeah. All right, Corey, 

[01:05:55] Mike Koelzer, Host: take care.

Thank you. Be in touch. All right.