Enhancing Pharmacy with External Pursuits | Jason Chenard, Speaker

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

[00:00:12] Mike: Jason, for those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today.

[00:00:19] Jason: I'm Jason Chenard. a pharmacist and a pharmacy owner in northern Ontario. I'm a pharmacy manager and a pharmacist in a corporate pharmacy, and my wife and I own two of our own pharmacies. Today we're going to talk about how we have it wrong. Where we set 

goals. 

How setting goals will Prevent us from becoming what we truly can become .

[00:00:47] Mike: It's the opposite of what almost everybody thinks that they would hear. Coming from you, who is now in the age group. Canadian triathlon scene and that kind of stuff.

[00:01:00] Jason: think if I had set goals. 

Like we're trained to do in pharmacy school, I would not have been able to imagine where I am today, a seat 20 years in the past .

I've almost come to realize that a goal on paper today is limited by all of the things that happen to that person over years of the development of that goal.

And what I've realized is that some things, like triathlon, perhaps is a good example, but also in the profession, where I wouldn't have, I would have never been able to picture myself doing these things uh, back then when I would have had to set the goal in the first place. 

[00:01:44] Mike: It sounds like you're saying we have to be a little bit more nimble in what we're considering goals and then nimble and how we're getting there.

[00:01:54] Jason: is a good word, I think flexibility is another good word. Rolling with the punches comes to mind. Adaptation comes to mind. But I almost think that if a goal is going to create an identity for us, then perhaps we're limiting ourselves to what we can't see today.

I specifically remember when I, around the time that I graduated pharmacy, that would have been about 15 years ago And, and a lot of people who were outside of the profession would ask me a question, something like, what, are you going to own your own pharmacy? And my immediate thought were never this is, I was learning to sign a prescription and counsel a patient being an owner was so many steps more.

advanced than all of that. And if I had a goal, an immediate goal, it would be to be a pharmacist.

And if I had set that goal and I ignored everything around where the profession could take me, then I potentially would be limiting myself.

It's almost like having a fixed mindset as opposed to a growth mindset 

[00:03:08] Mike: right, Jason. So someone comes up to you and they say, all right, Jason. you're saying you don't have a goal. But goal's a nice word. Goal's a quick word. It's easy to talk about. Is there any word that you can come up with that is stronger than goal?

[00:03:29] Jason: I'd say process.

If we use triathlon as an example, what being a triathlete or the reason that I was drawn to triathlon was that it would give me an infinite or unimaginable opportunity for lifelong health, wellness, work life balance. Basically I thought, I have an idea of what a triathlete is, but I don't know enough about the sport to identify it.

And I'm gonna continue to draft a process that allows me to become a triathlete, whatever that ends up being. But what I do know is I have a good feeling that triathlon will certainly have me training. It should have me going to bed on time, eating right, managing stress. And it also gives me a lot of mental variety so that I don't get bored by running two hours every day and becoming a marathoner.

And I also thought that it probably would give me some opportunity to travel.

And I didn't know what that would be, but I've discovered over five or six years of training in triathlon a lot about the sport. And I would have never imagined that I would be here in it, if I had set some goal about, say, doing five triathlons before the age of X, or whatever the goal might be 

specifically.

[00:05:00] Mike: All right. Now, just for the listeners, we talked about this last time. 

[00:05:04] Microphone (PD100U)-3: I've done about. 

[00:05:06] Mike: I'm going to say probably 25 triathlon races. It was back in the mid eighties when the sport just started.

And then I had another run at it from 2013, 14 and 15. Now, I will just say this. WHen I was training for my second go at it, I was out running and this lady was running towards me. So I'm like, 45, 47. This lady's coming towards me. And she says to me, good for you. She would have said that to someone who didn't have any legs or something and was crawling around, good for you . That's a noble cause for an old fat guy . So I just want to tell you that's where my stuff is with triathlons.

Now, I had to say that first because the second thing I want to tell you is I have heard the same thing about retirement. Okay. So I'm in my mid fifties. Let's say in five or six years, I'm out of things. And I have heard a couple of things. And, but the one is what do you like to do? What do you like to do with your day?

Picture your day. Picture the process. I like having coffee. I like puttering around. I like doing this instead of setting this goal of saying, we're going to live in, wherever for six months, a year, look at your day, look at what you like to do, what time you like to get up, look at all those kinds of things.

And that future goal sort of takes care of itself by what is good for you on a daily regimen.

[00:06:54] Jason: I think when you ask a lot of pharmacists about retirement, I've got a few colleagues that are older than me, And I asked them about it, and it's clear they haven't thought about the routine. They're used to punching in and punching out, and the week goes by so fast as a pharmacist. And too many colleagues, now I don't know anything about retirement, and I don't know anything about being a 50 plus year old pharmacist, but too many of my colleagues seem to be saying they're going to golf. And I don't think that they've thought it out enough. And certainly I'm not in the position to give them any kind of advice on it, but what you said there about the things that you like to do, I think is key. And it happens, there's things that you like to do as part of your day to day work life, but we also don't think about what we like to do in the day to day home life.

anD I think the benefit comes in trying to figure out some of those things when you're super busy as a 30, 40 year old person with kids, so that, and starting some of these daily routines, habits, hobbies, and developing a social network within you actually become 50 plus, 60 plus, you can actually do those things and you're not starting from scratch.

[00:08:16] Mike: I had a guest on uh, he's a CEO of a current company and between companies, he was like 50 or something and he retired and went down to Florida, but he said, I couldn't stand it because everybody down here was 70, they were just doing 70 year old things.

 That's true about starting early because sometimes to really enjoy you don't have to be great at something to enjoy it, but it's nice to look back where you came from and where you're going and here's the problem too, something like triathlon, you might do that when you're you're 75 and you're in front of me on a bike and I'm looking at your age on your calf and thinking how come a 45 year old can't beat a 75 year old, but that's not here or there.

But, the odds of you starting something, a triathlon, when you're... 65 when you haven't done it before, when it's just been a thought of you, it's probably not going to happen. A lot of that stuff has to happen earlier. So you start dreaming and you get in there and you do it and you meet the friends and those kinds of things.

If it's going to be a lifelong hobby of yours, there's no better time than starting early on.

[00:09:36] Jason: With the right long term goals, I think we're right. I mean, if, Five years ago, I didn't know how to swim. And this summer, in the open water, I just would say that I got comfortable.

And if I had started swimming, and... Enjoying triathlon at 65, then I'll be limited in all of it and I'm depriving myself of the joy and all of the benefits that triathlon gives me if I don't start now. The other thing is that pharmacists are pretty type A thinker, planner people. They like to see progress and step by step growth and that's what brings them a lot of happiness.

So I think... If we don't start young enough at finding some of the things that we like, we're going to wake up someday and there aren't going to be any drugs to dispense anymore and we're going to feel a little purposeless. 

[00:10:32] Mike: Something that I've enjoyed in my life, and I think it has a lot of similarities. And anybody could pick any hobby slash... path they're on and almost insert it for all of these. Mine is sight reading on the piano.

And so I've been doing that since I was 21 years old and I do it daily and I don't. I don't ever play the same music twice, and so I'm truly committed to being a sight reader, so you sit down and you play what's in front of you and you may never see it again. Kind of like a book. You don't read a book, the same book and memorize it and so on, you keep moving on.

And the benefit I have over triathlons is I get to sit on my ass. Now, in triathlons you get to sit on your ass too, you sit But, the pedals on the piano are easier to press than the pedals on a bike. 

 I think in business we have so many ups and downs 

and you can't control everything there. It's cool to have a, something outside of work where you're always marching forward and I know, especially for piano, not necessarily for me, for triathlons, because some days I wouldn't feel good and I'd have crappy this and that, but for piano it's cool for me because no matter what, if I commit to it.

I get better and better and better. It's cool for me because no one's ever really going to hear me play outside of the home. The kids try not to hear me play inside the home by shutting the doors whenever I start. It's cool to have something that I don't have to depend on anybody else.

I'm not competing in the business world against somebody else. You're maybe competing against yourself in little ways, but it's something to move forward on when life seems to have a lot of ups and downs.

[00:12:40] Jason: Agree, fully agree. I think so much about our work days is other people directing us or telling us what to do. And in this hobby, outside of pharmacy, whatever it might be, if it can be your choice. Then it's going to be something you enjoy. Maybe not every day. Some days will be harder than others.

But it's going to keep you going and it's going to keep progress happening because you chose it. And I think if you can make a choice, not knowing what the goal is or the end goal, but just letting the end goal happen over years, there's a certain happiness that's going to give you back that you never pictured.

 When I tell people that I made the national team I, I still can't believe the words coming out of my mouth. And I tell people like me, I never thought this was possible.

And I didn't even know this was a thing when I started. I didn't even know there was a Team Canada that went to this world championship event somewhere else on some other continent.

That came to me within the network of triathlon and learning about it. And there's going to be something like that for you and your piano, or for someone doing archery, or for something that is lifelong, non pharmacy related for somebody else. I think all you've got to do is make a choice, and be open to what that choice gives you back, day to day, and just stay with it.

And let progress happen.

[00:14:20] Mike: This is a story that perhaps a lot of people heard, but there was a professor in front of class and he had this jar and he had sand, pebbles and water and big rocks. And first he put in the sand and then the pebbles. And put some water in there and then he tried to put the big rocks in there and they wouldn't fit, the sediment was on the bottom and the rocks were just spilling over the top.

Then he switched it the other way. He put the big rocks in there first and then the sand settled around them and then the pebble set it around those. Then he filled it up with water. Everything settled around the rocks. The moral of the story is to put the big rocks first. So, I think one lesson I learned way back was putting the big rocks in first. And so my big rocks are my three mile morning fat guy walk. And My piano in the evening comes to hell or high water. I'm gonna sit down at the piano. It might be 11: 30 at night.

It might be 6 in the morning on an electric piano, but those are commitments and believe it or not Everything falls in between it still with nothing being lost. 

[00:15:46] Jason: The one big rock that I've come to appreciate this year has probably been a half hour in the morning. And I, and there's so much talk about morning routines that I don't want to overdo it, but there's a half an hour where I get up before Lauren and the kids for the most part, and I take some coffee and some water and I go to my workout room downstairs and it's, it's Stretching or meditation, some days it's lifting weights, whatever it is, but, I had no idea how important that was until I skip a day and I'm grumpy and I'm stiff and maybe it's because I'm getting old, but that morning routine is incredibly important to me now.

I plug in my sleep tracker ring, I look at my data, I stretch out, and that time is, it's my choice. I woke up a half hour earlier to do it.

And when you add up all those half hours for 300 plus days a year, you get a lot of time,

And not all the training for triathlons happens there. 

My hobby is not jammed into that half hour, but it sets up the day 

real well. 

[00:16:59] Mike: Jason it's similar to where I'm, up in the morning and I have an hour and then I go for my walk and this and that.

And they say that the routine is important to have a morning routine. I know it's important. But I never knew exactly why. Why do you think a routine is important? And besides just getting the stuff done, why do you think that routineness of it is important? 

[00:17:29] Jason: I think it speaks to... the characteristics of a pharmacist, the personality of a pharmacist. We accomplish something right off the hop. We like to see progress. We like to accomplish things. We like to do good. 

It also gives us a sense of control and we work, I mean, at least in retail.

You're at the mercy of the public coming in whenever they want. There's none of that happening in this morning routine, whatever it might be for you. It's purely you, it's probably completely by yourself, unless the kids are knocking on the workout room door.

But I think it's time to yourself, it's control, and it's progress.

[00:18:08] Mike: One of the happiest days of my life was when I just got married, had a few kids. I redid our rec room in the basement at our house. And I got some old carpeting from my mom and dad and had someone lay it down. And I did some lights and painted this and that.

And I remember getting our first real TV in the house as a 27 inch color box and that was one of the happiest days of my life for some reason, seeing that all come to fruition. One of my friends told me, he said, Mike, The reason you like that so much is because you spend all day in the same place and it looks the same when you came in from when you left and you did a lot of good, but your body didn't feel it because it feels like you're not moving anywhere.

So anytime pharmacists have a chance to build, to move, to make progress and see it. I think that's a cool thing.

[00:19:07] Jason: No doubt. No doubt. I told the staff in a meeting, I remember in was saying that, my job as a manager is to try to make the place better when I lock it at 

night. And I don't know what that looks like, but I think a part of the leader's job is to make it operate better when it closes from when it opened that morning. And the thing I didn't realize is That is difficult to appreciate because it looks the same. Nothing's changed. Maybe you can measure script count and some of the things that you tangibly accomplished. But when you've done a good job, everything's under control and the patients are still healthy.

Or they're still there and the drugs are still on the shelf. Maybe the bottles are a little more empty because you've used the contents inside, but everything looks the same.

And I think maybe something in that daily routine, that progress towards developing the hobby is a change for us and that is measurable over time.

[00:20:14] Mike: I like what you said about control because when people hear control, yet people think control freak and all that kind of stuff. But if you think of the average pharmacy, whether you're an employee or whether you're an owner, like we are, and you feel like you're getting slapped around by PBMs and different stuff like that. Not that you should give up in the business sense of things, you still want to fight for what's right and so on. But there is a beauty of knowing that you see yourself controlling certain things of your day, and things of your routine.

[00:20:48] Jason: ALl of this makes a lot of sense because from, we're a pharmacy student, everything is thrown our way we're told what to do, we're told which course to take and when the exam is going to be and where to be and where to, how to do it. And then we graduate and we've got lots of bosses and we've got a lot of people telling us what to do, where to stand, how to do it and we're trying to figure out.

How to be ourselves within all of this and then you get 10 years into the profession and maybe you're some kind of leader

and You're still you've got a head office or you've got somebody else unless you're the owner you're trying to make a lot of people happy and you still haven't carved out anything where you're choosing the path and You're probably pushing 30 at that point And you've been told what to do for 30 years.

So the appeal comes in the sense of control because it's something that you get to choose and get to see improving by only your influence.

I Take pride in the idea that I think I was the one that found a triathlon for myself. 

When I think back to how it developed I think to me, I started running

after school because I had some study fat to lose and I...

 Couldn't play competitive hockey because there's not a ton of opportunity for men's hockey that is sort of a fitting of a pharmacist lifestyle. It's always late at night and everything else.

So 

running was the thing that I could do, that I could control around my schedule with a pair of running shoes, no big deal. And then I thought I'm going to be bored of this in a few years,

 And I started swimming in the pool. And not knowing anything about swimming. Splashing around. Didn't even have a pair of goggles at that point. So you look it up on YouTube and you try to figure it out and you try to make this easier for yourself.

And naturally, a whole bunch of triathlon videos come up. And I go, well, I biked as a kid. I'm obviously already running. All I gotta do is figure out the swimming part and that's the shortest leg of all the sports.

But mostly I realized that this was just something that I decided to do. That no one pushed me, no one forced me, it gave me some control.

 The possibilities were endless. I don't even really know what this is, but I have a lifelong opportunity to learn at my own pace with no pressure. Who cares if this turns out to be any good

or not? I don't have anybody holding a gun to my head and I'm not being paid to do this.

And so much of what a pharmacist is in the results driven pharmacy world sort of has us meeting targets and meeting certain thresholds for maybe a bonus or a rate increase or everything that we do is paired to something else.

And the hobby, the choice isn't.

[00:23:53] Mike: We're going to use these as examples. Jason, your triathlon and my piano playing are symbolic of doing something outside of work. And the cool thing about it is that there's nobody that can deny your progress. 

I was a swimmer in high school and I always thought that was kind of a cool sport because there's no one to blame and you don't have to complain that the coach doesn't see what you can really do.

There's no vying for a spot. You can't be like Uncle Rico on Napoleon dynamite saying that if he was only put in, he would have been in the state champ kind of thing. It's all on yourself. And that's really beautiful because there's so much in our day to day, that's not on us.

That's either someone competing against us or. Not caring about us in a financial way, a lot of different things but with these kind of things outside of work it's all you,

[00:24:54] Jason: Pharmacy is a team based world,

And I think when we're finding that hobby outside of it , it might very well involve other people.

For us our example is a very independent sport or hobby. There's power in... Doing it yourself, but I think it also involves other people.

There's a network of people that also do that thing and that's important 

[00:25:22] Mike: but they can't bring you down. You can only use them as a positive. You can't use them as an excuse.

[00:25:29] Jason: there's no doubt that, for the triathlon example, for me, I'm in control of my pacing, I'm in control of my effort, and I look at the results at the end of the race, and I know that it wasn't a referee's fault, it wasn't another competitor that crashed into me, the day, like the weather the three foot swells that I had to swim through at one of the races this year.

Sure, those are outliers, but those happen to everybody and they put us all in the same field.

Did I have it or did I not?

[00:26:01] Mike: Jason, I don't think it is. By chance, we are both doing individual things. I'm wondering if I would like to do something based on a group. Maybe I would, if I could translate that to something by myself, I think for me, I don't know if it's our personality or if everybody says, well, of course we would do that.

It seems to me that a solo kind of thing feels right. Maybe there's some professions where they're more active, less interaction during the day where they would pick something more as a group, something like that. I wonder why.

[00:26:47] Jason: this non-work part of your day, the hobby, I think we're symbolically talking about, the piece that completes us and actually makes us better at the work job.

I think it might be a team based thing, it might be part of a choir, where you can't do it alone.

 I think... It can be individual, but it has more power if it gives you a social component. If there's a part that you can talk to others about,

That's gonna keep you interested. When I started training years ago I just accepted that nobody else around me did this.

To find a male in the thirties that I could train with wasn't going to happen.

And let alone someone with a pharmacist type schedule, shift work, aNd then I met my neighbor two years ago. He's two years younger than me. He works more of a nine to five type of job. But incredibly gritty and...

 Was looking for something that he could compete in because in the day to day work he's an insurance and he's sort of balancing his own book trying to outdo himself year over year 

and he's not really competing with anybody

anD I thought that's kind of like a pharmacist isn't it

You're there with your team and you're doing a thousand prescriptions this week and you're going to probably do a thousand prescriptions next week.

And the guy down the street doing his thing and you don't interact with them and you're not really competing. Nothing is forcing the better out of you.

And when I started training with Rob, We were pushing each other and all of a sudden we were more consistent if I were to record, look, the journal entries of workouts are insane.

I would have never completed that on my own.

But so much of this has been me myself training on my own, but having a network, even more.

[00:28:50] Mike: With triathlons, it was my early forties. I said, I want to do this again.

But the thought of having the bike. And the tires, and the goggles and the wetsuits and all this kind of stuff. I Had zero affinity to that. I didn't wanna do it at all. It just sounded way too much to do. But interestingly, like a few years later, That enthralled me again, the whole thought of that, of getting the triathlete magazine and pretending my 500 bike was like a 5, 000 bike.

At least I could read about it, but it just enthralled me. And it was interesting, I was the same person. I think it was a wave of wanting to be involved at that point. Talk the talk and all that kind of stuff. It was interesting though how that peaked like that and went down I don't know why it changed, 

and I think there's as you talk about the people and kind of the life of it. I guess it gives you a whole different life outside of your maybe day to day life,

[00:30:01] Jason: So much. If you look at the day-to-day life of the pharmacist, it's a lot of the same, it's even a lot of the same patients with the same problems and ask us during flu season, how great, greatly appreciative we are of all the same questions happening over and over again.

 It's just there are some mundane pieces. And, I think you're, I would say, as a pharmacist, the waves that you're experiencing, the peak of that wave, if you were re interested in triathlon again, I bet you the trough was just something else peaking, 

and you probably 

stepped away, 

[00:30:36] Mike: I think you're right. 

yin yang of organization and chaos, was being forced maybe to do too much of the order instead of doing it on my own kind of thing.

[00:30:46] Jason: If you can take a passion, and it does not become... You're 40 hours a week. I bet you have more steam through that passion for a long time 

 I'm not becoming a triathlon pro and quitting my job at any point. That's not gonna happen. Not only because I passed the curve where my you know, my performances can do that anymore But I'm gonna burn out and I'm gonna wish I was a pharmacist again 

[00:31:11] Mike: you 

hear that a 

a lot where people have taken hobbies and turned them into their career. And like you say, they just kind of burn out on it.

[00:31:21] Jason: Yeah, how, you can step away from the day to day pharmacy job, but at the end of the day, I don't think there's going to be some hobby that gives more, and is a bigger part of your identity than the original, piece of the pie, the original pharmacy job.

But I guarantee you that I'm less jaded than a pharmacist.

After I've had a good week of training or even look forward to a good week of training. I just, we're planners. We like to see it there. We like to predict it. We like to control it. And we like to imagine the progress that's going to happen when we accomplish all of it. I look forward to, if I've got a weekend of work ahead of me.

It doesn't bother me as much coming into it if I know I just came off of a good three or four days of training properly and I'm tired and I'm ready to shift gears back into the more intense work schedule.

And vice versa.

And that might, that's not just triathlon, that would be, time with kids it might be a trip you're looking forward to, something small.

But that's what keeps us going.

[00:32:35] Mike: I think that we are maybe a little bit what's the word? Desensitized to all the people's lives that were changing, but especially for the mundane days. If I think I've got some mundane days coming up, if I don't walk in the morning and practice piano at night and among all the other things of being a good dad and husband and things like that, if I don't do those two things, I feel like. a day slipped by, like a day's gone. And it's probably a little OCD-ish, but if I don't get those two things in, not on weekends, but weekdays, especially on the days that I'm working, if I get them in, I feel like this day was. positive. And again, it's probably because the pharmacy job has become desensitized.

 If I was coming in off the street and saw the people I was helping there, that's a good thing. But I think maybe the moral of that story is. We always have to think that we're moving, maybe as humans I know we're not supposed to, we're supposed to be human beings instead of human doings and all those things that people say, but I think that we have to be thinking that we're making progress and maybe that goes back to our DNA of being explorers and, conquering new worlds and all that kind of stuff.

But there's something there, I think. Yeah.

[00:33:57] Jason: We're nomads, and I think in the pharmacy world, the same thing happens where we've, we stay in the same spot and we accomplish similar things day to day. And you're right about being desensitized where you are, when someone tells you how much more knowledgeable you are than their doctor and how much.

They trust you more than their doctor. Those things felt differently in the first year of practice than they do now

because we've heard them a lot. Yeah.

And, and it's not necessarily the same conversation when someone's angry

or there's confrontation in the pharmacy. That still hurts the same. so I don't understand that side of it, but for the things that are good or good to us, I think we need to be progressing.

[00:34:46] Mike: My wife will say to me. Because I can't make it sound like I enjoy my stuff more than she does at home. I know I could never do what my wife does. The work and putting up with crabby kids. So she'll say, how was work?

And I've got a few different things. One is SSDD. I say the same blank, same stuff, different day. Or else I'll tell her, they don't call it work for nothing. That's one too. And then sometimes I'll say that I have to go to my ten square feet and stand there all day. Now, she does know, I love it because I can talk to people all day, work on the podcast, things like that, but it can seem mundane when we're desensitized to it.

[00:35:33] Jason: I think that another power that the out of pharmacy hobby gives is that it gives us something to talk about at work. In the right balance, and it allows us to create culture with the people around us. 

Not a lot of people know a ton about my hobby.

But they're somewhat interested on a superficial level.

They don't want to hear me go on but at the same time they appreciate what this does and it gives them something to think about so that they can tell me an analogous story about their life. And now we're having a conversation, it's not about work and we're actually getting along and it's relationship building,

and then next week, that conversation builds on another one. How was your ex? The thing we talked about last time we worked together, for a triathlon, it's how your race was and it's a bit of a conversation. And then they were going to tell me something else about something that they did on the weekend or whatever because that conversation is just naturally going to go there.

 It makes the pharmacy job a little more interesting. And when you know people at a more personal level, you're more likely to have higher job satisfaction. You're more likely to stay in one job at the same time. And you're more likely to be desensitized by the problems, by the waves of the day.

[00:36:47] Mike: Back in the day, I think people liked my dad more than they liked me at work. But I also don't remember my dad having as many financial problems as we've had. I always say that you can. Hide a lot of things with hundred dollar bills that kind of raise up once the money's going.

But I think people liked him more, whatever. But I think back to my dad and the employees back then, they'd get him a birthday cake or they'd get him a little statue or something like that. And it was always on golf. My dad golfed a couple times a week. It was never like we're going to get you something with a RX on it or something like that.

It was always golf. That was kind of his identity. So that hits home when you're talking about that of people having that identity outside of work. Everybody's doing the same damn thing at work that's really the only thing you can pull in. 

[00:37:41] Jason: The other thing is, they're not competing with you on that thing, In The job when you're the boss, or she's the boss, or whatever there's a different dynamic at play, or if it's two pharmacists, and one is accomplishing this, and one is not, and

this is just different from all of that, and it's relationship building in that way, maybe a good example of this is when I was working with one of our pharmacy assistants and, I said, I got an email from triathlon Canada, 

We've been chatting about the world championships and the possibility of qualifying and some of this stuff. And when I told her the good news, we made the national team. And for the next hour, she was digesting all of this. And we're chatting and she's making all these mistakes in the blister packs.

And I'm like, what's going on? And she's just distracted. I can't believe, I'm, I can't believe this happened. She's more invested than I am at this point. But it's because we've just dabbled in conversation for the last year or so working together. And I find that sometimes I'll leave work.

 And, something happened to one of them, one of the pharmacy assistants or whatever, and I'm thinking about it, Because it happened that day. You're hearing about it. And it's like a, it's like a show that you're getting an update on, 

and it's part of your workday. 

And if you don't have that in the workplace, then it makes it a lot harder, a lot more mundane.

I think at the end of the day, when you have an example or a reason to get to know someone else and vice versa, then it's going to make you, it's going to bring more joy to your day to day job. And I've always thought that in, and I've worked in the corporate world for a big part of my career, and I always thought that the corporate job would be harder the head office job

because it's a little more alone.

And that's not something that I'm used to as a pharmacist because I'm used to having three or four people around me all the time.

And If you don't have anything to talk about, that would be very difficult. Or nobody to talk to, that would be difficult as well.

[00:39:50] Mike: There's a psychologist online I like to listen to and he said that other people make us sane. In other words, if I say something to you right now, Jason, and we're talking and you look at me funny because of something I said. That means something to me and throughout the day when I'm talking to people. So if I start saying some wacky things right away, I get that response from people that say, those are wacky things you're saying and you pull them back.

I don't know what those would be. Let's just say that. I say I really feel like robbing this bank. That'd be a great way to get money, and then everybody responds to you and so other people are who gives you your sanity and when you don't have that, these thoughts can grow without anybody giving you a funny look and it makes me think of what do they call it in prison?

What is that called in prison? The 

[00:40:52] Jason: So, my dad ran to jail his whole life and he called it The Hole.

[00:40:56] Mike: The whole 

[00:40:56] Jason: Hole. 

[00:40:57] Mike: solitary confinement?

[00:40:59] Jason: Oh yeah, that's fancy.

[00:41:01] Mike: I don't think it's good. Your dad ran the prison? 

[00:41:04] Jason: my dad was the 

warden. 

[00:41:05] Mike: He 

was a warden? 

[00:41:07] Jason: 30 

years. 

[00:41:08] Mike: flip the switch ever?

[00:41:10] Jason: No, that's that's not a thing here, but,

 The stories that I heard as a kid were very interesting. I specifically remember I had braces for two years, grade six, seven, eight 

And my orthodontist was down the road from the jail.

So I would get dropped off at the orthodontist after school, get my braces changed and then walk over and then my dad would either, bring me home from there. It made a lot of sense. And I'd walk into his office and there'd be shanks on the, on his desk and, just, oh, just stuff that you're not going to see in a pharmacy.

[00:41:47] Mike: Now Jason, you're not just making this up for the show, 

[00:41:50] Jason: I... If I made that up on the fly, I would be in another business. I should be writing movies or

[00:41:57] Mike: I like to watch YouTube's about serial killers, and what's the other one? Not sociopaths, but psychopaths. And prison.

It's just so foreign to me. It's cleansing the palate of everyday life. But it's fascinating stuff. But I guess not if you're in there every day I suppose.

[00:42:18] Jason: For my dad, it was a job and It was about leading people at the end of the day, he's leading a team of people that are guiding inmates day to day through their process. But yeah, you'd have to be extremely hardworking and very gritty. And a lot of the leadership characteristics that I like to think about as a pharmacist.

That. Maybe I don't have perfected, but I'm still working on, or probably things that my dad has been an expert of for a long time. I look at that sort of environment, and I look at it compared to what we do, and I think, man, managing a pharmacy must be easy , now. , there's *********************************** some similarities, like he might have a unionized environment, a unionized workplace in a jail, and you might have one in a big corporate pharmacy, or you might have some of the similar problems. So we've chatted over the years about how he has dealt with certain circumstances.

anD there's a similar conversation that can happen when leadership conversation that can translate between both worlds. But certainly that environment would be... Would require probably a lot more, a lot more toughness, a lot more mental durability, perhaps. I always thought. 

[00:43:29] Mike: I always thought that prison would be the only thing in life that I couldn't deal with. But then watching my shows at night 

[00:43:41] Jason: Heh, heh,

[00:43:43] Mike: They get out of prison, it's kind of like their retirement.

 In other words, they're leaving their home. They didn't have a job really, but they're leaving everything they know. And this guy, it probably happens a lot. This guy's like, it's been really hard out here. I want to go back, he wanted to go back to prison.

That was his life. Maybe it's not so much where we are, but. Who we're with, what we're doing, where you feel at home, all that kind of stuff.

[00:44:09] Jason: No doubt. And my dad has certainly spoken to that. The guys, the guy that gets out after a long time, the world has changed.

And he just decides he's going to throw a brick through something and steal something out of a store to get back in.

Because 

That's what he knows. So, working as a pharmacist day to day, are we at risk for something like that?

Where at some point this stops and the outside world has changed.

Or, can we figure out, instead of setting specific goals , can we find things and navigate within our comfort level through the progress that they give us?

And maybe we're at an advantage as a pharmacist because you don't need to stop, you don't need to hit the brakes at 65.

Maybe you keep your license and you work a shift a week or two and you, there's, the possibilities are endless, but your world can't change so suddenly on you that you don't know where to go anymore. SO you might, I'm not gonna work 35 years in retail. And then quote unquote retire and then say you know what I'm gonna try hospital pharmacy.

I don't think I'm gonna know anything about hospital pharmacy if I haven't dabbled.

So I think we got to set ourselves up for lifelong learning like we're supposed to but also do that for our non pharmacy life as well. 

[00:45:47] Mike: My wife and I had a chance to go up to her cottage. This weekend without any of the kids. And I just told her the importance of this because there's so many couples that you hear they retire, they get a divorce.

And I think years ago when you died. 65 or 70, you're like, some prisoners are 30 years old. I can do another four or five, but now with people living, 90, a hundred, some of these people with no relation in their marriage, they might be looking at another 25, 30 years of doing this.

I think maybe one of the keys is that sometimes you hear people about retirements, like we're going to retire and move down to such and such when they maybe have never done it before, or we're going to retire and do this or that.

But now there's so many things you can dabble in before that big. Change. And like you say with pharmacy, you can almost slope it down and slope it up, one of the things that scares me is being bored, getting done with stuff. So, I guess I'd always rather have a little bit more tension than boredom.

[00:46:56] Jason: I see a lot of 55 to 70 year old patients who don't have problems to solve anymore. tHey've retired and what the pharmacy does makes them angry. And , these are small things, small wait times, co pays, and not being able to get their appointment for their, 

flu shot and having to come back for an owing.

And I'm going like, when you were 35 with four kids, two of them in hockey and one in swimming and one in piano, this wouldn't have, this wouldn't have ticked you off. You had bigger fish to fry.

And now your threshold for stress is nothing. Something happens in the coffee shop, and your day is ruined. I remember during, COVID shot

time, I saw intelligent people with all of their paperwork, all of their vaccine paperwork fixed up all good.

One guy came in with a briefcase. This guy was a university prof, but he's retired and he's got nothing to prove again.

So his new thing, his new challenge, is to manage all of his paperwork. 

Because he's an academic. 

And it's actually making him angry, because he doesn't agree with everything about it.

But, that's what he can do, that's what he knows, that's part of his identity. And that's all he did his whole life.

[00:48:26] Mike: I live in a condo association, but we don't get anything done. It's not like we have the same types of houses or we get our lawn cut by anybody. It just so happens that it's a legal thing in our area and so we have to pay for our own street maintenance and things like that.

Anyways, I'm the president of the HOA now. It doesn't really take anything, but we do have an issue coming up right now and you get that you get somebody who is a former attorney and someone else who is this and that, and they want to make the biggest thing out of this and you're right.

People have that skill and they don't know what to do with it.

[00:49:08] Jason: And I find that because people are living longer and healthier, they still have their cognition at 65 and they're capable of using those skills that they developed when they were in their 20s and 30s. Are always asking my wife and I, how do you do all the things that you do? I think it's just about the idea that we're supportive enough about each other because we all have an idea. We all appreciate the passion that everybody has in their things. And those are things that we can somewhat do together, but also have time alone.

right.

And I think those things will allow us to dive deeper into later when we have more disposable time, income, whatever.

Maybe they won't be worth anything to us ten years down the road, but I think at least we're opening doors for ourselves. If your spouse knows it's important for you 

[00:49:59] Mike: for a half hour, they know you're going to be three times the person you're going to be for that next hour than you would if you were just kind of sitting there as a lump for those two hours.

[00:50:10] Jason: And the person that you get back when your spouse gets the opportunity to go do that passionate thing is beneficial for

[00:50:21] Mike: Absolutely. Like my wife, I'll let her have her cooking hobby and her cleaning hobby and her going to the grocery store hobby and, it all seems to work out. Hey, Jason, so good to have you again. I appreciate you being on and giving both of us the opportunity to poke around a little bit. Thank you.

[00:50:42] Jason: Likewise Mike, sometimes it's fun to not have a perfect structure and agenda for... An online meeting. The world is used to so much of that

already. And I think there's a lot of pharmacy podcasts out there , and a lot of them are strictly about a specific pharmacy angle, when there's so much more to the pharmacist. And if we don't explore those parts, then what are we all here for 

 I'll connect you with my dad and you guys can talk 

about prison all you want. 

[00:51:12] Mike: But let's do it on a friendly basis, not as a Prisoner Warden kind of thing.

[00:51:18] Jason: Yeah, let's hope that's not the arrangement.

[00:51:20] Mike: Ha! All right, thanks, Jason.

[00:51:21] Jason: Sounds good, man. See ya.