Learn how to navigate relationships in the pharmacy and improve your leadership skills with professional trainer Tyson Clarke as he delves into the importance of assertiveness in both personal and professional settings.
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(Speech to Text)
Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Tyson, for those who haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today.
I'm Tyson Clark. I am a sort of hodgepodge of different, sort of, different professional services in pharmacy for the last 10 years now, I would really like to see pharmacists be able to speak up more and, to be more confident in their, in their leadership skills, in presenting offers to patients and in their personal lives too. Just being able to assert themselves.
I grew up modeling for me. We were always between these two mountains of either silence, you could say agreeableness or aggressiveness. And whenever anybody said be assertive, I always put that into the aggressive camp.
Mike Koelzer, Host: But there's a beautiful place in the middle there. It can be a kind, polite, but assertiveness,
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. Like that's the, that's where psychology has put it between aggression and passiveness. And, man, you hit the nail on the head. A lot of people. Do conflate assertiveness with aggressiveness, including my original clients in this endeavor. But it really is like, after you're practicing it and you get over the sort of, the fear, and we'll get into that a little bit,
but after you get over that, you really, it really enriches relationships, riches all of your relationships.
If you think about the 10 top relationships in your life, you're giving something to those relationships, whether it be your staff or your spouse or your kids or your, your parents or your in-laws. You give something to those relationships and they, believe it or not, they actually like you and they would like to know more about you, and they appreciate learning new things about you.
And there are things that you're hiding from them through politeness, right? Because you don't know how to articulate those things.
yeah, there's, there's, you're right, man. it's spot on. There's a lot of fear and people just, I think a lot of the time pharmacists don't ask their spouses though.
Tyson Clarke: Their spouses will say, no, what are you talking about? she's not passive,
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Yeah.
but yeah, so we sort of, when we don't want to speak up and where we have some fear of the there being or, or some sort of offense in those relationships, we sort of collapse into silence or accepting a circumstance that we don't want to accept,because we don't know how to articulate without sacrificing or damaging the relationships.
Tyson Clarke: So,
Mike Koelzer, Host: I did that. I had a situation where I did that for so long that I actually thought of myself as almost a liar, you know? That person did not know me because I was not bringing up certain situations, and it went from being, you know, maybe not trying to rock the boat to I wasn't even myself.
I was almost like a split personality.
Tyson Clarke: Right. and you probably resent them for that.
you probably like to blame it on them and they might not even know it.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, you know, I blamed it on them. Then ultimately it's like, well, I gotta, I gotta do my part in letting people know who I am.
Tyson Clarke: So there's a couple of intelligences that go into assertiveness and psychologists, they call 'em. Since I started developing the assertiveness training, I found that psychologists grouped them into what you just did, passive and aggressive. And then assertive is the overlap.
And passive is seen as very bad and well, or, overly peaceful and aggression is seen as very, is very bad. but I like to look at them both as two separate intelligences that
are trying to sort of meld together.
The passive side is this sort of complaint. Tribal, like the unwritten rules around culture.
and the reason that I think that I've got a little bit of a different take on, sorry, in the sense psychologists do, is because I've traveled a little bit and I've seen, you know, I've got friends. My, my best mate in Australia, he's Filipino,
Tyson Clarke: Basically all, most Filipinos that you're gonna meet, if they were passive in the Philippines, they're not gonna be passive in England, let's say in the uk, they're gonna come off as very aggressive because they say exactly what they think and there's no offense meant by it.
Okay. And I love that. I really enjoy it, it's very refreshing to hang around Filipino culture in the way that they speak to each other. just don't refuse food from them because it will be
really offensive. That's offensive. But talking about what your body looks like, if you've blown up 15 pounds, that's totally
on the table. But don't refuse pig's feet, So, but yeah, our community is a, and culture is a very big part of that intelligence, right? So what's aggressive on the upper west side is not the same as what's aggressive in the Bronx. What's aggressive in Australia is not the same as
aggressive in the us.
Tyson Clarke: So there's definitely a cultural component here. and it's, we've got a cultural component in every part of our life. You don't talk to your best mates the same way you talk to your mum. you don't talk to your spouse with the same sort of unwritten rule set that you talk to, your work mates.
you've got that side and that's the unwritten tribal rules, and you're a part of a hundred tribes
Tyson Clarke: right now. Right. Then the other side is aggression. And that's, I've, I think, [00:05:00] well, some psychologists call this the authentic self.it's just sort of difficult for me to call it that because you can't separate the two.
There's no separating you from other people. You're always part of a tribe. so it's just, it's the, it's that, it's the greed, it's the desire, it's the, it's the passion. It's your values. it's the, I want to gimme part of you, right. That is actually, you can't vilify it because it's what drags you outta bed in the morning.
self-interested in some respect, you wouldn't do anything.
You'd sit on your bum. And so I view these two intelligences, as something that we want to kind of have. Right? So you want to have your self-expression. the passion, the GRE that I want, gimme, and then you have to have that within the unwritten rule set of the tribe, whatever tribe that you happen to be in, like whether it's work or, talking to your mother or whatever.
So yeah, that's perfectly stated, right. I'm putting a little different skew on it in that I call it tribal and passion, intelligence.
It seems to me that when I read some of this stuff about tribes for different reasons,why do people gossip and assertiveness and that kind of stuff. A lot of that is evolutionary. I mean, if you were in a tribe at night around a, a, a tribal fire, and you were kicked out of the tribe, you had to go not only, 10 feet from the fire, but you had to be, 300 feet from the fire.
Mike Koelzer, Host: That's not as safe. you're out there the lions and tigers
Tyson Clarke: Oh one. Have you heard of the studies by Matthew Lieberman on this?
Mike Koelzer, Host: Not specifically his name.
This is a fantastic study and it's quoted all over the world in psychology these days. it's, it relates a lot to a timeout. So if you, we stopped spanking kids, or it became unpopular to spank kids and you give 'em a timeout instead.
Tyson Clarke: Well, the brain doesn't know any difference. So exclusion light lights up the same parts of your brain as physical pain. It doesn't know the difference. So it's not the, like, not just the lions and tigers that you've gotta worry about outside of the security of the tribal fire. You're, we, you're right, we have evolved.
We're a social animal, and I don't think any of our social signals are there for no reason.
You know, there's a reason that fish don't cry. They're
not a very communal animal.
it gets us help,
right? Sometimes we need it. Um, we have all these, so, you know, we've heard all these.
When a kid looks back at you, they're like walking into a new, a new kid, like a little two year old, right.
And they're ex, they're exploring a new thing and they'll look back and they can immediately gauge the amount of anxiety on the parent's
as to whether this is a safe thing or not. So yeah, absolutely.
A lot of social signals, a lot of social behavior is for fitting in with that, fitting in with that group. and
today, more than ever, I have this maxim When, so social media goes up, social skills go down, and we are wondering in and out of different tribes with different tribal rule sets all the time online because there's no
So you can wander into, for example, using politics, the easy one wrong, wander into a right wing group and say the wrong thing and get pummeled or wander into a left-wing group and say the wrong thing and get pummeled.
So we don't know what we're walking into and there's more anxiety about communication
because am I gonna get kicked out? is the tribe going to, pumble me?
send me away from the security of the
fire? All that sort of
stuff. I think that, today when there's everyone's sort of walking on eggshells around each other, and it, I also think it that contributes to our anxiety because
there is a, especially professionally, right? What you can and cannot say. but if we can't have, if you can't have a logical, well thought out discussion that somebody else doesn't disagree with, and that's probably not a healthy relationship for you anyway.
so maybe we should have some more thought behind what it is that we're saying. But, I think that talking to other people about it helps you to extrapolate and rub up
Tyson Clarke: each other and sharpen the blade of. Of conversation
as well. So
Tyson Clarke: yeah,
I'd really like to encourage and give people the tools to do that.
Mike Koelzer, Host: It used to be in politics that, uh, I've heard it said that when you are walking down the street, you are both. Left and right. And what I mean by that is, if a left person or a right person politically walked down the street, they're basically gonna help somebody the same who's, fallen out of a car or something, they're gonna try to treat 'em and help 'em, also maybe take 'em to something more established like a hospital, all that kind of stuff.
And politics. It used to be the fighting was during, nine to five, the left very. Importantly had to talk about things way left, about needed [00:10:00] change. And the right was there to put some breaks on the far left and say, Hey, let's not do things too wacky.
We've got a world to run here. Things like that. But then at night you'd come back and, you'd be with your family and with your neighborhood, and people had thoughts all across the board and you realized that far left and far right talk was important, but it was important for a certain part of the day and then come back to real life.
I think the problem with society is that you just get these camps and then the real world doesn't seem to happen. Nobody knows how the hell to live with each other anymore.
Tyson Clarke: So, so you're saying you think that the accessibility to the conversation is a big contributor?
Mike Koelzer, Host: I think it's too much. I don't think people are forced back into the real world enough. They can hang with those camps 24-7. And of course, Zuckerberg and these guys, they know that out of 10 posts you read, you wanna read nine about people that really agree with you.
And then one is from some guy who everybody's disagreeing with. But you have to have that person in there for the other nine to give you something to gripe about.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah, I think the griping thing's a big deal. especially today. Like we, we've never had it any better than this.
The world is amazing. And so I'm from fine North Queensland, where it's really, it's tropical paradise, right?
And I had this saying, there's no urgency in paradise. You can't get anyone to buy anything
because if they get off the couch and outta the air conditioning, they just start sweating.
if you can't create some urgency to look at something, I don't know, something that disgusts you,
that's the thing I'm gonna show you to get you to respond.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. I can't, agreeability is like making it nice and comfortable, but
the part that really greets against your values, then you're gonna amp up and
get caught in that.
And I don't think it's particularly good for discussion. I think this is,
Tyson Clarke: talking to each other, but we, as that stuff goes up, as social media goes up, your anxiety of dealing with real people is also going to go up and your social skills are gonna go down
and, and we're, we're absolutely petrified of, know, professionally to say what we want.
And like, I'm not, politics aside,
I would just like to see people get along. .
I think being more assertive can do that, where you can say, look, I respect your opinion. I, respectfully disagree. This is why we can talk about it. That's fine. I would like to see more of that, but I, in pharmacy, in, in families right, when maybe the in-laws overstep their boundaries a
a little bit, when it comes to parenting your kids or in a leadership situation at work where you know somebody's not pulling their weight and you've gotta help them to recognize that it's not who they are, but their behavior.
And It's having those conversations and not being afraid of it at all. And it's really possible, right? It's true.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Tyson, in your business history, part of it was the training app on the phone and the training in terms of, if somebody has a twisted ankle, your app would help them say, maybe you should get some ibuprofen and maybe a ankle brace and maybe a cane for the future and so on.
But you were finding that when you were babysitting that company, these things were happening, but as soon as you maybe took off, some of this stuff wasn't happening and it came down to not being too complicated, but. to sometimes just the staff not saying this was important. And some of that comes down to bosses, owners not being assertive enough.
And it seems when they're not assertive enough that something else feels better, maybe being peaceful in the moment, but it hurts in the long term. So with your new focus or increased focus on assertiveness, why would a pharmacy boss who has all the money invested can make all the decisions they want to? Why do they feel that they can't be assertive with them? In telling them everything. do we owners, do we have our fears even with high schoolers and, uh, part-time workers that for some reason we don't feel we can be assertive.
Tyson Clarke: I, I I think it's a lot more prevalent like Serena Williams is talking, but you know Serena Williams being asserted with her own business decisions. . Life is very colorful. Like you've got lots of different things going on and a pharmacist might feel extremely competent in, um, in working with patients and stuff.
But then in deciding, this is the direction I want to go in my business. and then the staff don't really go along with it and they don't do the training or they, that, that stuff is hard. You might not be a very confident leader, or you might just be brand new. You might have just graduated and you're [00:15:00] coming into the business.
I think it is, even the people that you don't think of her, that you think are really confident, they're gonna have the same problem and the staff are gonna think the same thing. you're really confident you're wearing a white coat. You've got this, all this authority.
Tyson Clarke: You must know what you're doing in every situation. Well, no, you're just a person. . you've got insecurities like anybody else. You don't know if this is the right direction or not. What I think that helps you, you need to go in a direction that you do want to go is knowing that you can handle situations where the staff don't comply in where you want them to.
You're gonna be a lot more confident where you're gonna, hey Jenny, look, I noticed you haven't done the training. We remove all the status from the situation. We just talk as people, and I can hold you accountable. This is what I want to see. Will you do that for me? It's a really simple conversation.
but that fear of losing relationships from whatever, right? Probably pharmacists are, very compliant types,
Tyson Clarke: right? pharmacists are fantastic at holding staff accountable to whoever makes the rules that aren't them. If it's the F d A or CDC or whoever. we're going, we're gonna do these rules, and if you don't follow these rules, you're done.
it comes to their own goals, their own needs, and their own, you know, that I want, gimme that, gimme part of themselves. Um, the greedy pardon of themselves. That's, that's, that's not, that's not acceptable or it's, um, it's less, no, it's, you're making an apology for it. and holding people accountable to what you want, as an individual is much more difficult than holding people accountable to rules that somebody else makes.
If that were the case, I wouldn't have a job.
Tyson Clarke: Right.and I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have had the same conversation with leaders all over the world about, the leadership skills and business skills of pharmacists
That works out to be the same thing. Hey, we need pharmacists to stand up for themselves a little bit more.
We need them to speak up a little bit more.
Mike Koelzer, Host: It's a lot easier for me to let someone go in the business if the outside pressures are there as far as, uh, you know, our profits down or, um, this or that, something that's external.
When it's internal, when it's your own choice to let somebody go, that's tougher because Reflects back on you, or at least you think it reflects back on you about who you are as a person. you're selfish,you have no feelings, all those kinds of stuff. It's hard when you can't blame it on somebody else.
Tyson Clarke: So the governing bodies are really useful,
uh, scapegoats, aren't they?
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Tyson Clarke: yeah. yeah, I think a lot of it's gonna come down to sort of self-image, like you're talking about there
like, am I a good person or not? I usually do a self justification for that where I'm just like, well, you know, if I don't do this, what happens?
You know, if I don't hire and fire this person who's not following the rules, then you know, I'm gonna get another, bring an apple that's gonna spoil the bunch. I even take that in, in, in my family, right? Where there's things going on within your family and you don't call it out, then that sort of behavior is going to fester within your family.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah.
Tyson Clarke: Look, what, if there was no anxiety to handling those problems, , that's a good question to, to go with,what if there was no, no fear of having the best team or the best family? What if there is no repercussion to that? And that's actually possible, right?
if your mother-in-law's overstepping the boundaries or if there's staff that are running a Mark A. Little bit or, if things are sort of slipping away from you, that doesn't need to be a big cost much of the time. if the person's reasonable, and you are happy with doing it, it builds a stronger relationship.
Okay. Okay. And we've all had to do that within family situations where something's not right. We're not comfortable. Thanksgiving, I should run promotions before Thanksgiving and Christmas, cuz that's when all the funny fights happened, right?
We've gotta call people out for being silly whatever, and things get out of hand.
I don't want that kind of behavior in my business or I don't want that kind of behavior in my house. And I'm not a bad person for wanting to succeed in business
if I don't succeed.
I don't hire all the other people.
Mike Koelzer, Host: One of the best methods if your an employee who wants to mess with your boss and make it hard for them to be. assertive is being passive aggressive. Those people suck. I've had some of them in my staff in the past, you know, as I started maturing more, I cleared them out. But those people suck because then you're trying, not that you need an explanation for people, but you're kind of saying, look, these are my standards.
And they're passive aggressive. They're like, yeah, I agree with that. I'm doing that. You know, it's just passive aggressive. They're stinkers, those passive aggressive people, and we all are to a sense. But they're stinkers.
I had some tenants like that. and yeah, I totally, I hear you, it's really draining. It's very draining because the areds they're all being really nice up front
Tyson Clarke: throw a little giggle in after they jab at you. Um, and you know, there's something bubbling under the surface and [00:20:00] then you are sort of forced to do the work for them.
Or just deal with the underhanded remarks. So there's no real,I don't deal with that anymore though. I
just,just, Hey look, there's something going on. Let's talk about it.
will infect your team. Everyone's been at a team like this, whether it's in sport or business, where you've got gossip or innuendo or backstabbing or passive aggression that will infect the rest of your team. Cuz you are feeling that way and everyone else's
too. So you've gotta nip that in the bud. And the person's probably worth saving. They just need some help expressing themselves, right? they've learned this. But here's the thing I've learned about assertiveness. Nobody teaches it to you. ,
we get taught to say, please and thank you.
We get taught to have good manners.
but nobody teaches you how to stand up to your mother-in-law when she's overstepping her mind. That's well, I've come up with training that handles sort of 85% of the really hard stuff, not the easy stuff with the, with being more assertive of like accepting compliments and, and sharing opinions.
Tyson Clarke: But, making requests for your own desire or saying no to things that you don't want to do. These are the two really big things that, that passive people, that they fall into. And,I've found it to be mostly a game of status,
right? and it really gets in the status of being on the same side as aggression.
we have a need for it. And you're not a bad person for. Wanting to drive a cool car or having fancy clothes or whatever it is, you might have a different level. You got into pharmacy because of the status, at least
Tyson Clarke: a smart profession. People are gonna look at you go that person's, what are you a pharmacist?
there's a little bit of a lure, there's a little bit of stigma that you're a, you're a clever duck.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah,
Tyson Clarke: So the status side of things, is there in all tribes and assertiveness are the rules of the game. in order to gain people on your side to maintain standards of good communication and clear communication within the tribe, but also sort of climb the ladder of status.
Mike Koelzer, Host: About two or three years ago, business got rough and I lost just a ton of staff. I wasn't around as much and one of the more visible leaders of the team, I mean, I was a leader, but one of the more visible leaders took off and then it seems like people took off after that.
They've kinda lost their tribe that they've had. Here's the problem I see is employees can come in and they'll say, I'm putting my two week notice in. And it seems like everybody accepts that. And even, you know, a boss might say, just to calm the waters, might say, well, congratulations on deciding this for your life and this and that. But as bosses, it's really nobody's damn business why I'm letting somebody go. And I might decide, you know, if someone's an employee of mine, I might decide that, you know, they're 49% good, but 51% bad. I just feel like doing this. It's just a little itch I have, you know, I'm, I'm gonna change things up, but you can kind of become the devil for that.
Tyson Clarke: Oh, for sure. You can always justify it with a bunch of reasons. I think. I can't remember who said it, but there's nothing worse than a, an average staff member because you can't fire, they're hard to, they're hard to fire,
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. and then throw in their passive aggressiveness too that they're not admitting
Tyson Clarke: they're infecting the rest of the team with the mediocrity. and so it, you'd rather have a bad employee than a, than an average one because you can say, well, you can point to a problem, but
those hangers on, the ones that just stick around. I don't, I look, I'm on your side with this one man.
if you go to get rid of someone, cuz you think there are cancer on the sort of performance of your
Tyson Clarke: team, You. It's not about them .
It's not about them. It's your business. This is the funny thing about pharmacy.
You go to any other business, if you went to a patenting company or construction company, they're there to make money.
That's what businesses are for. And they make money because they add a lot of value to their clients or their patients as a case movie. you're not a government organization there to make people happy that work for you. That is a really good way to keep them there. It's in your interest to make them happy, but if they're not gonna jive with your culture or your standards, or your team or your goals, I don't know what other option you have.
If you wanna stay in business for a while, you're gonna wear yourself out. You're
Mike Koelzer, Host: Tyson, I think that you're really onto something there, because let's say you're selling paint, you know, and. God bless everybody who sells paint. And that could be a good mission for somebody's life. But you don't usually look around a bunch of these Sherwin Williams places and say, you know, we don't care so much about money.
We're here to bring beauty to people's lives and this is what's important to us, and we'll do this even if we don't make money. You don't hear that. But pharmacies are so used to not making a profit and being pushed around that sometimes we owners almost feel like we're running like [00:25:00] a charity case. we take that word profit out of there, and when that's gone, , it's hard when the real reason you're there is not there.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah, I get that feeling from pharmacists a lot.
Because to be a pharmacist, you need to be compliant with the rules or people die. and so there's a real caring factor, the caring is extended to the patients. Now, you need to care for your staff too,
to a certain degree. But there's an expense if you care, if they care more about their whatever,
money. Um, if, if you care more about that than you do about the longevity of your business, then you're not gonna be able to serve the patient anymore.
So, yeah, that's why I focus on pharmacy, is because there's a logical part of your brain.
There's a communal part of your brain, and when you focus on that a lot, right? that's the passive side,
When you focus on that a lot, your desire gets buried underneath all the rules of the tribe,
and you're out of touch with it. And so what I've found is, working with people with assertiveness, we start at the beginning.
You can only take the step that's in front of you. And passive people are very rarely aware of what they want. Actually. Aggressive people, they say what they want and then they get it. And they didn't want that anyway. So. So you never know. but passive people are painfully aware of what they don't want
because it happens several times a day and they walk away and they go, oh, I should've said that, or, I wish I'd have done this, or, I really gotta do this, or could stand up to this person.
Or, I'm settling for this standard that I shouldn't, et cetera, et cetera. The list goes on and they're really aware of it, and they want to say something, but they don't have the tools.
and so the path that we take to getting to what it is that you want, is starting with articulating what you don't want.
Not just knowing what you don't want, because you already do that and it's painful to you. And that's the first step. that's the step that's in front of you is knowing what you don't want and being able to talk about it
I guess some really clever bloke could come along around a speech operated, application to, to practice those situations. um, right. Yeah. So, they can't talk about it. they don't have the tools. And the tools are very simple, but I'm, I looked into the field of assertiveness with the psychologist and most of its books.
Okay. Most of it is books. And even the best selling books are on page two. This book isn't gonna help you because you don't gain skills, you don't gain social skills by reading books.
That's the problem. You need to practice it. And so, the way that I approach it is, okay, look, we're heading in this direction.
I wanna start at the beginning. You know what you don't want. Let's work on the tools to articulate that. And what you don't want is usually a standard not being met in the physical
world that we can both agree on, right? So the method is you are using a blue pen for these documents. Now I can see the blue pen and Mike, you can see the blue pen.
And so there's no status anymore. It's not, I'm the boss and you need to do what
say it's, this is a blue pen. What I want to see is if you're using a black pen cuz we need to use those for the legal documents.
request, will you do that? It's very simple. so it's a, it's an external reality that we can both agree on to reduce status.
So it's not a status, it's not I'm the boss of you. When you
year old daughter, you have to learn these,
Or, any kids. they're defined and we kind of want them to be defined cause we want them to be strong and to be able to deal with
the big, bad real world. and so to get them to do what you need them to do, you remove status and look at an objective reality that, that try very hard to disagree
so I have over a hundred role plays that we train on sort of anxiety provoking situations, but it's
the security of your own phone. so you're practicing talking to your phone, which you do sometimes. Anyway, We use
our phone for a lot of other things these days, but
sometimes we talk and, so you're looking at a role play and you recognize this situation.
You get taught the methodology that psychologists use and I've sort of conglomerated into my own method. So right off, we, we talk about. Practicing the method, right? And knowing what the method is and why, and then we start to ease you into some role plays where you have to speak the answers so that you're getting comfortable with the methodology. I don't want you to read about it.
you're not gonna change your life.
Tyson Clarke: I don't want you to be impressed with my app.
I don't want you to tell me that I'm clever or that I've, I've fixed this
Tyson Clarke: issue.I want to hear you tell me, oh man, I stood up to my boss. I want, I was able to handle the staff
That's what I want. I want to see the real results in your life. That's what gives me the warm fuzzies.
Okay? So we practice the first one, which is we agree on an external reality. Hey, right now, you know the clothes are on the floor, in the room.
What I want to see is the clothes in the basket or put away in the dresser.
Tyson Clarke: Will you do that? That's the request. Okay. So you can do that with your
staff. Um, and it's easy for me to tell you that, but doing it is
very anxiety-provoking for a lot of people in whatever the situation is. The second one is when [00:30:00] somebody makes a request of you or there's, you're dealing with the internal reality of somebody else.
Okay? somebody asks you, Hey, can you gimme a, can you gimme a lift on
Saturday? That's a request. I can't point to that. So
there's no way to like
look at the ex external reality of life, so you say, well, this is, psychologists, salespeople, they all do the same step so that we know we're on the same page. We're on either level.
We say, I understand
me to give you a ride on Saturday. , then you sort of follow the same process. You say like, what your conflict and desires are. Right? So I'm saying my desire about how it conflicts with yours, or just say what I want, right,
or what I don't want. I wanna stay home with my family that day and then make a request or redirect a conversation with them maybe.
Right. Maybe you could ask your cousin, I know he's got a car, or I, I, understand you need a ride this Saturday. I've given you three rides this week, man. I wanna stay home. So we will organize something else
then, you know, like this. I'm not, I'm not being a jerk. I could say, uh, this is people's advice for passive people.
No. Is a complete sentence.
That's true. But you,it's crass and abrasive and,and it's not gonna come out nicely.
Tyson Clarke: It's not gonna do
anything for that relationship. .and passive people aren't gonna say that. Aggressive people say no,
Mike Koelzer, Host:
yeah. Right. Exactly.
Tyson Clarke: So I'm trying to provide the tools for the people who need it in a way that's conducive for them doing it.
And, what I'm finding is passive people are a lot more angry than they give themselves
Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, of course they are
Passive People are really angry.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. And they're afraid of their own anger. And so they, I think of it like, I grew up in the tropics, so we do a lot of swimming,
but you know, when it put, you are in a pool and you push the ball down
underneath the water and then you let it go, you don't know where it's gonna go.
go left, right
backwards could hit you in the nose. So I see it like that. Like you've got the surface of the water and that's the rules of the tribe. The social,
you know, standards and you, what you want is the. And the ball wants to come up,
where. And so if you are practiced holding this ball underneath and you're afraid of where it's gonna go, maybe you should be,
Tyson Clarke: maybe if you let it out and say, no, you gotta bark at someone or say
Mike Koelzer, Host: Right.
Tyson Clarke: But if you had sort of structures to let the ball out slowly, you can actually use that to, to
And I found that to be really good. Like really, it enriches all of the relationships in your life
giving more of yourself and you're not sacrificing or damaging the relationship.
You're just saying what it is that you want or who you are or your goals for your desires. And the person actually, they want to know more about you. And then you're a leader, right? Because it's not easy to do. Not many people are assertive in a constructive way. They see that in you. This is where it's good for pharmacy.
They see that self-expression in you and you're inviting them to do the same. In a constructive sort of milieu, a really way that is conducive to team building
and sharing information and letting me know more about you. And then when those situations do arise off, Hey, I want to go elsewhere, it's, or you'll probably get it, you probably avoid that a lot because there's this issue that they don't want to bring up.
And if I just cut this part of
cut this job outta my life, I don't have that problem anymore. But if you're the kind of leader that welcomes communication in a constructive way,it's gonna be helpful to those people to express themselves to, you can avoid that situation to begin with.
Mike Koelzer, Host: to, then leav.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. You know,people don't leave. Well, they're saying now because of benefits, but it's, it's, it's, the financial situation is different
than it ever has been. But people stay, people stay with you. for their strengths, and they leave for their weaknesses,
right? they want to have that growth.
You want to pay them for their strengths. You don't wanna pay them for their weaknesses. You're gonna pro, you wanna pay them for their strengths. You want to develop their weaknesses and you help as a leader. I think we all kind of want to do that,
especially pharmacists. We want to see people grow and want to help them and have a relationship and
lead a team. And, so, but you're not gonna be able to do that if they can't see you as a confident person who can handle all kinds of situations with all kinds of information that they're gonna share with you.
And they're, just think about like the top 10 relationships in. And what if you gave 15% more of yourself to those, and
those people gave 15%?
You've got a richer life.
Every one of your relationships is enriched through being able to communicate what you want to say and who you are and your desires in an appropriate way.
Not oversharing, but in an appropriate, balanced way. And there's a lot more for you to give and receive.
Mike Koelzer, Host: As I said earlier, I was kind of, fashioned more in the role of usually trying not to rock the boat, but I found in my life, and I've worked on this even with some outside [00:35:00] help on this, but when you've got that ball underneath the water, let's say, when that ball finally has to come up and you know it's gonna come up because you don't have a choice, because the issue is on the table, or it has to be on the table. I found myself, and I think other people tend to do this, unless I'm the only crazy one out there, but I found myself being aggressive because you don't know where the assertiveness is gonna go.
I found myself being aggressive because then, the person receiving it, they'll say, well, boy, Mike means it because he was angry or he slammed his fist down, or, he's really sure of his stuff and so I guess I'm gonna do that. The problem with. That's not long term because how many times is your employee , or family member gonna put up with you, pounding your fist and you know, really making a statement.
There's no growth from that. You might get your way temporarily, but it's not long term.
Tyson Clarke: No, it's not conducive to a good relationship cuz you're not considerate of the rules of the relationship or what you're gonna do. The unwritten rules.
you're gonna invite them to do the same.
Mike Koelzer, Host: That's interesting.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. So they're gonna, they're gonna mirror the leader's behavior by yelling back at
And you, you, there's a part of you, there's a part where you kind of want that, but if you aren't demonstrating the kind of behavior that you want to see, you're not gonna get it as a leader,
You're setting the tone at every situation, whether it's in your family or in your business. You're setting the tone for the standards of communication. The other thing I thought of when you were saying that was, look, let's, it's gonna come out
somewhere,you don't know, where you've got a problem at work and where's the safe place?
The safe place is home,
and then you're gonna take it home and you're gonna kick the dog and you yell at the wife
or the husband as the case may be, or
the kids.and we all, we're all guilty of that. We're all guilty of that. I wrote an article recently about, assertiveness in your marriage,
it's, it goes for all relationships, right?
If there's a problem in a relationship, and it's minor. and you, let's say the relationship lasts for 20 years,
but you don't speak up. It's like a fire hose. You know the ones that flatten out?
It's got a little bump at the start.
Well, the bump as every rotation, oh. Every year goes
by, the problem bigger and, after 20 years in a marriage, let's say, of that same problem, it might not be worth unraveling
cuz there's so many problems that have, so handling problems as they arise and having the tools to do it comfortably where it's actually going to enrich your relationships.
I know that's a lot to wrap your head around
because we avoid confrontation. But,
I drink my own Kool-Aid. I've been doing the course myself.
I thought I was a pretty assertive guy, right? I told my wife, she's like, you're not doing it assertively for training. , you don't need that.
But just being able to have that strength, that scaffolding that, the training wheels, right? Then, to walk into a situation where it's hairy, right? You, we've all got hairy situations. For me it's like I've got kids
I've got two families to join together, right? my
wife's family and my family,
Tyson Clarke: And you've got grandma and grandpa and they're trying to be involved and their values are gonna be different to yours.
And it's, there's gotta be toes stepped on. And to be able to handle that without stress,
the relationship by actually using it as an opportunity to build a relationship,
It's, I can't think of a better word, but it enriches the relationships in my life to be able to do that.
Confidently and by expressing myself, but there's no danger.
The danger's made up because I didn't have the tools.
Mike Koelzer, Host: You can really get in trouble if you keep sweeping stuff under the rug.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. And you don't know how small it's gonna be. It could be really minor. And I think that's something that responsible people do. They blame themselves. You can't control anything else.
you can only control yourself, so you're gonna naturally blame yourself if you're a responsible person. I do.
you've got a line though. There's a line. and maybe you're mad.
Tyson Clarke: This is why I say it's a status game,
So you're walking away from that situation, I should have said this, and then in your head it was like I would've said this. And then they would've reacted, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Or,
my God, you're so much cooler than me,
much better than me.
Tyson Clarke: Right? That's what you want because you feel like they've denigrated you in
of fashion. It is a sort of internal,this is status, right
status,your level of totem pole in the tribe,
it's never like that, and you don't want it to be like, Right, especially if you're a passive person, you wanna be on even keel and you
Tyson Clarke: want to, you wanna have a relationship with these people and you absolutely can.
And here's one of the things that I found, people think that they're cowardly for not handling it well, or they're, they're, they are, they are afraid. And you should be
right,that's appropriate. Maybe that's served you in the past
get too aggressive and
to wait for a safe sort of
Tyson Clarke: outlet. But calling yourself cowardly, which passive people are [00:40:00] tend to do, they really get hard on themselves. it's like I relate it to, Hey, look, I've got $300 worth of groceries to buy and I've only got $200
and feeling anxious about that course. Right? You don't have the tools to buy $300 worth of groceries.
And so similarly,you just don't have the tools to handle the situation and you can learn them and incorporate them into every facet of real life in just a few weeks. and so we've designed the training to be sort of just five minutes a day. you practice six or seven role plays a day or three times a week better, more the better.
and then they gradually get more difficult. but they're there. It's an anxiety-provoking situation on the safety and the security of your phone, right? Nobody's gonna yell at you. and there's a really secure structural procedure to do this, and more importantly than just reading it.
Tyson Clarke: Right?I'd like to decide, I'd like to sort of describe this as, If Kobe Bryant, the work ethic guy, right?
would be in the gym putting up 800 makes. Well, that's what I have. That's the way I've designed it. If you really want to change your life, you really want to lead your team better and have better relationships and assert yourself and communicate better. This is a way that is, you know, one of the chances that practicing hundreds of repetitions of the best psychological methods a month are not gonna heal you or result.
That's where I'm going. So Kobe's, getting the gym, putting up 800 makes, you're in the gym, putting up 800 reps of, just little short
Tyson Clarke: burst right on your phone. This is how I do it. Then get into the situation and you've done it 800 times.
It's just one more, it's not a big deal, right?
There's no anxiety. I've got the structure, I've got the reps in. I know what I'm doing. We're good. And that's the essence of leadership where you've developed a framework, a foundation where people can rely. On this level of communication.
Mike Koelzer, Host: When you talk about status and so on, some of the listeners are in this position where, let's say they bought a business and let's say they bought a pharmacy. And in pharmacy quite often there's a senior partner and a junior partner where the sale doesn't happen in one day.
It might happen over three years or 10 years if it's family, something like that. And I think a lot of what happens is sometimes, even though the new younger person is the boss, people kind of still look to the old lady or the old man as the boss. And even though you're paying the people and so on, and I think sometimes, The younger person is looked at like, uh, you know, like Prince Harry is now or something.
Kinda looked as not being as powerful. But
Sometimes as a boss, I've almost forgotten that I'm paying the people. Sometimes I try to get so on their level. When you're trying to encourage people sometimes I've done so much of that, what I feel like doing one of these. Months are getting all the paychecks in dollars, like getting $20 bills. And instead of just a keystroke, the person comes over to you and you go 2040, you're throwing twenties down 60, 80, a hundred, one 20. You're throwing 'em down like that. And then you say to them, Hey, change that ink color. You know what I mean?
It's like sometimes you forget that you're paying them. So there is a power difference in a business.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm talking about is,there's status in everything. There's a really good book about gaining status, and that is, by acla called Pitch Anything. it's terrible for st for passive people because you try and follow these rules and you end up being really aggressive
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, right.
but no, it is, when you think about it in terms of primates,the alpha or the biggest, the biggest guy in the room, he gets his first pick of mating or the
Tyson Clarke: fruit, they get groomed. they get first, grooming, people are picking them,
the lights outta their hair and eat them and that sort of stuff.
That's not dependent on intelligence or capacity, it's just you hold the pole position I'm
not saying that's bad. I think that that is the game, right? We're all playing that game of status and there's three kinds of status. There's virtue, there's success, and then there's domination.
Probably the most fun way to learn about it is to watch Game of Thrones.
Mike Koelzer, Host: haven't watched it.
Tyson Clarke: Oh man, it's a lot of fun. It's all status games. It's all, It's
just all that
for eight years. It's fun. but the rules of playing it in, like today, we are about success, right? We're trying to make money in pharmacy in an ethical way, so we've got success by virtue.
There's a little bit of domination, right? There's a little bit of a, I'm the big dog. This is
my business, you've gotta do that. But if I told pharmacists to do that, hey man,
out in twenties
Tyson Clarke: I'm not gonna be very successful. Cause it's just not, I know you feel
it's, and it's very natural to feel that way. but that can come out in a more constructive way where they understand where you're coming from, where like there's some resentfulness, with that staff member.
if that's how you
Tyson Clarke: feel and you can [00:45:00] say, hey Johnny, I understand you've got a
I want to hear about it. Or I understand that you don't agree with this process. or what I'm seeing here is that you haven't done the training.
What I want to see as you do in the training, will you do it? What can I do to help you? there's a like 15 second conversations that can relieve so much of your anxiety when leading a team that, or when, dealing with family members or
whatever that nobody teaches us. They
I really don't. And when they do, it's like, just say this, right? It's like a real masculine
conversation. You've got a problem, here's the solution. Just do it. Well, I don't learn that from a PowerPoint and I have to do things
thousands of times before I
as my personality.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. Or you see it as aggression cuz you're passive. And anybody who says anything that's gonna sound aggressive.
Tyson Clarke: It's scary, right? To a passive person. I'm naturally passive,
I'm a good little boy. It's scary to me to do that. I want that right? Because
Tyson Clarke: There's this, there's this, part of me that wants things that I'm pushing below the surface.
But it doesn't need to come out like guns blazing.
It can come out and build relationships within your business and invite those situations to be like, to be more productive instead of creating submission or domination. And like, not that's a bad thing,
right? Sometimes domination is required.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Sometimes.
Tyson Clarke: I just don't think it's very natural to, like, if you were in the sales industry, door to door sales, very success and domination,
right?but pharmacy I think is more about virtue and success. little bit of, know, a little bit of domination in
Of status and the games of status. But assertiveness will help in every, in every one of those
These are the rules, these are the rules and the tools to play that game and to play it successfully and to build relationships and move together as a team and invite others to, to be and communicate the same.
Mike Koelzer, Host: I had this guy like 10 years ago. He was a delivery guy for us and. Again, I was kind of stuck in this,passive or the aggressor. I didn't mean I was passive aggressive, but I was either on this agreeable side or the aggressive side. And he had this Detroit tiger shirt on and I wanted him to wear something a little bit snazzier for deliveries, not come up with this tigers or rock and roll shirt or something on.
And again, I was so caught in those two sides that I said something like, Hey, what do you think about this? I didn't give a damn what he thought. I knew what I wanted. And then when he started saying, well, Mike, I'm not gonna wear that because you said, what do I think? And then I lost it on him. I became aggressive because I was like,how dare you tell me what you think when I was the one that asked him.
So that training is so good because there's rules, there's, Hey, these are my needs.how can we do this? being truthful again.
Tyson Clarke: Yeah. So the way that you'd handle that situation, you'd be like, Hey, man, you wearing this tiger's shirt. I get it. That's cool. It's not a big deal. What I want to see is something that's more conducive to my business.
What can we do about getting you to wear something more appropriate? Or will you move, wear something more
appropriate so that when
you know, when my customers blah, blah, blah, and he might say no to that, like, being assertive.
being assertive doesn't mean you always get what you
Tyson Clarke: want.
It means that you say it in a way that's more conducive, that people will listen. or you're
more likely to get what you want, or
at least it doesn't damage those relationships where you're flying off the handle at 'em. it's just like a little bit of structure, a little bit of scaffolding.
I used it yesterday. We had a basketball game. Grandma and grandpa didn't have seats. There was a seat in the middle. Hey guys, seats are vacant. Grandma, grandpa here. Do you mind if I take it? yeah, go ahead. it presents itself so many times throughout the day, and you incorporate it into your personality so quickly.
if you practice, if you do the work right, it doesn't, it's not magic.
Tyson Clarke: If you like it, I'm not interested. If you like me, I don't wanna show you a book or PowerPoint presentation because I know that's not how you learn new skills. Nobody has skills that way. You need to practice and you need to practice higher repetition so that it is unconscious for you, and that's when it's gonna be a part of your identity and who you are.
One of the things I've noticed with this training is I make you divide between the external and the internal reality,
We're either dealing with the clothes on the floor, which we can both agree
with, or we're dealing with something that you feel so that I can start on the same level as you without sort of making it a tough down thing.
I'm forcing you to do something, and I'm comfortable doing that too.
Mike Koelzer, Host: What happens when you know damn well you don't want the guy in a tiger uniform anymore?
you've got to articulate your standards,
Tyson Clarke: right?that's what we're talking
about. The reason that you articulate the standard isn't So that they get a chance to, to defend themselves or anything.
It's so that you reduce the top down. And there's nothing wrong with top down, it's just that I can't get passive people to do that
It's just a, an opportunity to start on level ground
so that I can get you to agree [00:50:00] because you're an agreeable person if you're passive.
And if I can start with agreement. then I'm more likely to do it and be comfortable in saying what it is that I want. And because I don't know what I want, I've pushed it under the pool. Right. I can say what I don't want and I can
say what I don't like, and I know that because that shirt really pisses me up.
right now the shirt you're wearing is not going with our outfit, man.
Mike Koelzer, Host: You have to be truthful. But you can still find softness around where that standard is.
Tyson Clarke: yeah. I'm more soft about it so that a passive person will say it.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Ah, yes, yes.
because they might not say anything, somebody who's already doing this, like, I kind of think I'm more in the middle. I might say, Tyson, come on, let's get to the meat a little bit more. But some people wouldn't even like to breathe this.
And so you gotta get 'em, you gotta get 'em in steps. And that's where your program's so cool
Tyson Clarke: Yeah, I'm lowering the anxiety, I'm lowering the obstacles to getting to the conversation.
Agreeable, People want agreement.
Okay. And then they're
more likely to say what they want.
Mike Koelzer, Host: yeah. Right.
Tyson Clarke: It's just to get people to do this. Otherwise, what happens after you become more assertive? you can just go, Hey, man, we can't have that in here. You've
gotta, and you're cool with it, whether he doesn't like you or not, right? It doesn't matter.
But when you're starting from being a passive person and a really compliant person, you don't upset anyone's feelings and you're scared to assert your standards and your boundaries and your goals and your feelings because you're afraid. Cause it's all sort of bold up underneath the water, you're not gonna do it.
You're not gonna do it. So I want you to do it because what I've found is when you articulate what you don't want, it's
It's very much like people who journal, have like a
a miasma of thought
Tyson Clarke: and and journaling gets you to write it out in a linear, it makes that cloud into a line so that both you understand it and the person you're articulating it
understand it as well.
Well, being able to say what you don't want in a way that you're more likely to say it. Helps you to be more in touch with what you do want. You're sort of chipping away at Oh yeah, I
I don't like that. I don't like that. Oh yeah, maybe I do like this. And when you, because people, passive people are very aware of what they don't want.
What they do want is probably the opposite.
Mike Koelzer, Host: This isn't like Tyson's program on how everybody should be assertive. You're not taking someone who's aggressive and how to bring them back to assertiveness. You're not taking someone who's already assertive and wants to get better. You're really taking somebody who's passive and you're saying, come on, let's do this step by step.
Tyson Clarke: yeah. Aggressive people don't sign up for
That's not my market. No, they don't. they don't know. they don't care. They don't need to care. They don't
i need circum training.
Tyson Clarke: They don't have these, the same kind of relationships that you or I do, but me personally, I really like aggressive people. Right. I do, I really liked him.
I like the Filipino culture. my wife you would describe as aggressive. My best friend in Australia. I don't want to, I don't want to, throw him under the bus too bad, but yeah, he's, he could be aggressive, but they do it in a different way. Right. so they're coming back to the middle, but they usually do it like emotionally, they sort of soften the blow of their, crassness with feelings, where they, they, live with you.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Last week, this daughter, the adult daughter, 60 some, and her mom's 80 or 90. She called me and wanted something and supposedly she told me not to deliver this to her. Supposedly she told me that she wanted to come pick it up in the pharmacy. We delivered it to her.
And I think this lady's brother chewed her out. That's my imagination. So she called the pharmacy to be assertive and she told my staff, I told Mike to do this. We don't want our mother to be on medicine. This, and then I told Mike this, so she hangs. and this is an assertive person.
She probably did it with the right tone to my employee. My employee tells me this. I said, she's a bitch, and then I said, she's another word. And I said, it rhymes with this. I said, she's both of those. And I'll never forget it. I thought she was a sweetheart. I'm never gonna forget it until she dies. She was not aggressive. She was assertive.
I called her two names, at least I've got some other ones in my head. I know that's a psychological problem on my part. I shouldn't go after her like that and call her those names for doing that.
But sometimes that's maybe how I think people would feel about me. If I did that approach, and I know it's about the tribe but that's how I felt
Tyson Clarke: Well, that's how you felt. and that would be a good reason to bury your wants and needs underneath the structure of the rules. Because if you, if you were to spit back at her and she [00:55:00] was like, but I just told you what it is that I
Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah, no, I didn't do anything. I
I just felt that way.
Tyson Clarke: right. That's why you felt that way. And we all do, right? We all do. When people sort of point things out to us, our shortcomings, right?
Mike Koelzer, Host: If I would've talked to her, I would've probably felt a little bit better because I would've talked to her and heard her voice.
I think it was that relay of stuff that really made me call her a bitch.
Tyson Clarke: Well, Well of course, like, this assertiveness stuff is really just a structure to, to relay information. And you got like a,
grapevine, and the information was lost emotions
or, you know, resentment or
aggression and they all end up being the same anyway, so you felt offended or your,
Mike Koelzer, Host: because in my mind, her tone of voice, which I didn't hear at all in my mind, she was talking to me like some teacher. From my childhood, I was putting it the worst I could because I didn't actually talk to them.
Tyson Clarke: Well, also, you messed up so you felt bad
Mike Koelzer, Host: I don't think I messed up. I think she was wrong. No, seriously. Tyson, I would've done something with that. I don't think I was wrong. And we went out of our way. We called the doctor on this and did that. And well, I didn't do all of it, but at least I told someone to do it. But in theory it was work and I don't think I goofed up I would've said, Hey, I think I told you this.
I'm not sure I did, but look, mom's at home and this, and then it might have been, it might have me, I don't know, but can we do this? But I just heard it as her just being bitch.
Tyson Clarke: Well, you, your sense of status was offended.
Mike Koelzer, Host: I think it was
Tyson Clarke: You were, you were offended because you were a proficient and professional person and that was offended. Yeah. And so she was taking you down a peg, and so your aggression was sort of activated.
Mike Koelzer, Host: It was activated like a gorilla. And again, I wouldn't have said anything to her. I would've done this. It's settled down now, but at the moment, you don't have time for the frontal cortex to catch up. It's just the lizard in there. You're just pissed off,
Tyson Clarke: That's what it's all about,
providing some structure for the lizard and it sounds like you, you did a good job with that. You just, your staff didn't communicate it in a way that, the staff could have used the, Hey, you know, we messed up here,
Mike Koelzer, Host: I think they did. It just came to me. It's like, Hey, who was that? Oh, that was Patty. She was saying this or that, And then I let all the expletives fly, at least in my head. No, it wasn't in my head. I did ask them what rhymed with a certain thing, because I was gonna say what else?
I called her. they heard all of it, but they knew I was just blowing smoke.
Just blowing smoke.
Just having fun with it.
Tyson Clarke: it's probably not a bad thing for you to be able to communicate that with your team. Yeah, some fun at the, at with, with the team and letting them express themselves
or demonstrating it.
Mike Koelzer, Host: Tyson cool having You again.
That's the stuff that's hard to train. So if you can train stuff like that, the stuff that gives you butterflies, you're gonna come out ahead.
Tyson Clarke: Well, thank you very much, sir. One of the things,like to think about this business is, the first time I saw Robin Williams, somebody, I heard somebody say, as long as you could bottle that.
And I said, what does that mean? I was young. What
Does that mean? Like, well, if you could bud it and sell it, I'm like, oh, okay.
So I try to bottle intelligences from leaders and not just put it into a book, but put it into a way that you will reliably get a return on investment and
you will take in the intelligence yourself. So, I'm very excited to work with pharmacists. I think you guys are the key to curing chronic disease.
And I'm very happy to be able to help you guys express yourselves and hold your team accountable and have richer relationships in your lives.
Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, Tyson, until next time. Thanks. Talk to you.
Tyson Clarke: Thanks buddy.