Architecture for Pharmacy of Future | Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch., Owner at Sartoretto Verna™

Speech to text:

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] You're listening to the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Keer

Fiona, for those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: My name is, uh, Fiona Sartoretto Verna and I'm an Italian architect and I design pharmacies all over the world. Uh, my company I'm one of the owners is Sartoretto Verna in Italy, in Roman, and we have an office in Dubai, a representative office, also in New York.

I'm a third generation from 1965. My grandfather started the business, then my father, and, uh, and now it's me and my brother. taking care of all the world, all the world. Today. We will talk about the pharmacy of the future, an ecosystem where people, pharmacists and potentates must be at the core of everything.

Dubai, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Rome, and New York. Where are you sitting right now? As we talk 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Right now, I'm a man in Rome. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You go around the world and make pharmacies look great. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yeah, it's not only about aesthetics and designing a beautiful pharmacy, uh, but what we have in mind is to create the right pharmacy. Uh, what is the right pharmacy, uh, is the one that works for your neighborhood?

Mm. So we work with the independent, with the pharmacy chain, with the outpatient hospital, pharmacy, and each contest, as you say, we work worldwide is all different. You know, if we are in Europe and also in Europe, if we are in Italy or we are in Spain or in Germany, or we are in the middle east or in us.

So in Canada. So each place and each city is different. Each neighborhood is different. So what we do is, we make a big study of the contest, the environment, and we try to find the right solution. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: If you design one of these pharmacies and then you blindfold your brother and take him around the world and have him go into one of these pharmacies, but he doesn't know where he is.

Is he able to go into one of those and say, ah, this is a US pharmacy, and this is a German pharmacy, and this is a, a Rome pharmacy. Is he going to be able to know what country he's in? I don't mean with the signs and things. I mean, if nothing gives it away, is he gonna know when he goes. Where he is. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes.

Most of the time, this is, uh, what is about the soul of the place. And this is what we try to create. Uh, this means that if I work for the courts, uh, thinking about a front end, there are particular elements of design or, uh, some graphics or elements that maybe belong only to this place. I will make an example.

Um, some years ago I worked in Burlington, New Jersey. And, uh, when I ask, uh, for a graphic element, they want to introduce the owner, the independent owner, the pharmacist asked me to design a bridge that is an iron bridge. Uh, that they love the neighbor's love for me. It doesn't seem a huge thing, but for the people that live in this area is something particular that belongs to them.

So you will be able to understand the pharmacy for the pharmacy. Of course, it's also an analysis of the taste of the pharmacist. Not because if he's. Female, if it is a male or he wants to, uh, or she wants to go green. Uh, so it depends on many things, but most of the time you can breathe the neighbors around. We like to bring elements of design or particular materials that you can find only in that area.

But 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Even if from different areas in the US, your brother could walk into one and say, this is probably a United States pharmacy. Would he be able to do that? [00:05:00] Yes. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes. Why? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What does the US have? Across the pharmacies that your brother's going to be able to know it was designed for a US pharmacy. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Uh, I think that, uh, most of the pharmacies will design us, uh, are looking for coziness.

So they wanted to create a family. Uh, the family feelings inside the, uh, the front end, something that, uh, uh, will, you will not find the middle list. Not because the family is not important because it's very important also over there, but is what the independent, the pharmacy in America wants to transmit.

They want to transmit that you are like a, to like, uh, uh, so color, very soft pastel, uh, maybe some couch instead called the bench. The pharmacy unit is looking for, uh, of course a transformation, but, uh, uh, you know, we need to talk a lot about transformation in this period. During the COVID let's hope after the COVID.

Uh, so this is a feeling that most I found in us, of course, also the pharmacy. So the core of the place is different. You know, in Europe we work in a different way in Europe, we sell the pharmacies, sell the box in us and in Canada, uh, there is the preparation, there are the technician, there is all a different way to act towards the prescription that we don't have in Europe, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: in Europe.

It's more the final product, the box. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Exactly. Yes. Also, if I go to a pharmacy and I need just two pills, I'm restricted from this system to buy the entire box. Not like in us that I have my personal prescription, they 

don't 

Mike Koelzer, Host: split it down. It's more like over the counter where if you only need a few Tylenol, you're gonna buy 30 of them.

And in Europe, the doctors probably know they're probably gonna write antibiotics for the box of 20, more than 17 tablets or something because they know it comes in that box. But when they don't, you're stuck with the whole box. 

Yes, 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: exactly. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Fiona. When I was in a service club, we would get speakers in. And once a month, the speaker would have to be from over a hundred miles away because if they're a hundred miles away, there's a mystique to them.

Like they're an expert. So I've gotta ask you this. Could it be that you really just have a New York accent, but when you're working with people from. The us, you have that beautiful Italian accent, but when you're working with people from other parts of the world, you bring out your New York accent.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: no, I think it is always me. it's 

Mike Koelzer, Host: always the same. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: It's always the same. Unfortunately, my English, you know, I lived it for, uh, three years in South Carolina when I was younger. Uh, my ex husband Bandi is an American from Georgia, from Atlanta. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you have excellent English and a beautiful accent. I'm just teasing you.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Thank you for dancing in English. I'm trying to work out on 

Mike Koelzer, Host: it. I think it sounds beautiful. And you didn't pick up any Y's or anything like that, right? From South Carolina? No, but it 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: was very difficult when first I came, uh, uh, I dunno if you know, beautiful in South Carolina in the coastal area, uh, between Savannah and Charleston.

And, uh, so when I first arrived over there, it was pretty difficult to catch up with this Lang and the low country accent. Uh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So what brings you to Dubai? Is that like just well located. It's a good spot to hang another shingle. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Well, uh, um, what happened to my company? We start to be, uh, top in Italy and then they start people from outside to call us because there are not so many people working and specialize in design pharmacy.

And so it started also for the middle east. Uh, the first pharmacy we did over there was in Kuwait. And then in Saudi Arabia, uh, a very difficult place for a blonde, [00:10:00] uh, woman. Yes. Right. And also because Saudi Arabia today is not the one of 10 years ago when I started. No. Uh, but, um, And so it also arrived in Dubai then, so was a call from the middle east.

It was not certain to decide to open the market the same as us. We started with the first pharmacy about 10 years ago in New York city. And now we have so many that we think we are in construction with two one in Maro, neck, one in Coney island. Another two are in design in Queens, Brooklyn, and several others, one in North Carolina and California.

So there is a transformation in the mind and more and more, maybe the COVID enhances, uh, these status. I think that at this moment, everybody is looking for the well. Because after so much sickness, so many soft friends depart and everybody, the kids, everybody we wanted to see, well thinks. And so to start from the design feeling healthy, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: right?

Yes. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Wellbeing. Yeah, wellness. Uh, I say the culture well. So I'm looking for everything. Make you feel good? Yeah. And starting to redesign your front end or the concept, the entire concept of the pharmacy to give this to your path and is, uh, very good. As I told you, before we start to, uh, design, introduce the concept of design in the hospital, pharmacy, nobody thinks about hospital pharmacy in the middle east.

You don't think about it, right? I always say, like a post office seat, you wait your time, tune enough, just do it. But now people are tired of this. They want to see, um, the interior where they are put in the center, uh, their wellbeing. That is not only, uh, to look with AI, but to feel so it's a mental and physical wellbeing.

What they say 

Mike Koelzer, Host: with marketing, like. To be a good marketer. If you have a hammer and you're selling hammers, instead of selling hammers, you're selling a nail in the wall and a beautiful picture of their family. You know, that's what you're selling. You're selling the end product of a beautiful family. When you market pharmacy, yes.

You can market the beauty of a healthy family and so on. But a lot of times when people market, they're still marketing, uh, someone helping someone with their boo boo on their finger or they have a thermometer in their mouth and they show the mother stroking their head or something like that. But it sounds to me like people are sick of COVID and.

You're really selling the solution. More of wellness, not so much the focus on any sickness, but let's show healthiness and vibrancy. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Absolutely. I think that, uh, uh, I try to understand the needs of my clients because they need to understand the needs of their clients. So. Project. I design a pharmacy. I always think about the potential.

So the people that come in the pharmacy, uh, this is very important. And so right now we have a big occasion, the occasion, uh, Uh, where the pharmacy and the pharmacist now is, uh, again, the leader of the neighborhood mm-hmm because, uh, in the moment that everybody was close, they were afraid they were there.

Mm-hmm and I was there because we never close one day, you know, in Italy, what happened was very hard, but because immediately from day one, we started the plexiglass screen to protect our client. And, uh, in this way I really created a legacy because, uh, in that moment it was not business who cares.

I gave it the production cost to protect my client, to protect the departure and also, and, um, So at this moment, yes. I think that everybody has to take a step forward and think of, uh, uniqueness mm-hmm to [00:15:00] give, uh, uh, this happiness. I, I, I want to think positive and not mean because I'm Ted. Yeah, right. No.

Yeah. I wanted, again, this word, positive and wellbeing to be the things that we think of in the project. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Do you, um, well, that's a silly question. I was gonna say, do you. Wine, of course in Rome, you've gotta like wine, right? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: I'm a strange Italian. I, you don't like wine. I drink coffee and I, I, I, I drink wine, but just a little bit of the sweet one.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is there anybody else I can talk to? They're real Italians. Come on now. All right. Let me pick a different example. I like to play the piano. Okay. Yes. And my ear is not there, but if you talk to some people they'll know the difference between a $50,000 piano and a $5,000 piano, you know, they can hear the difference.

I think at least they say they can, and same with wine connor sewers, but here's the thing, especially with us guys is you're like the people we listen to about wine or piano and even more so, because when I hear of a pharmacy like health, I'm like. How different can that be? You know, just build the damn pharmacy and, you know, put up a picture of a few people smiling or something like that, but you live and breathe this stuff.

And so you're actually talking to individual people and from those conversations you can have like, Totally different pharmacy designs. And you can pull that out of them because of your talent and skills. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes. Uh, ALA everything started with optimization and functionality. I'm an architect. So, uh, the first things that I do when I look, uh, a pharmacy is to, uh, try to understand what are the mistake, you know, the flow, the, uh, the mistake that bring the pharmacy to don't work in the, in the good, uh, way, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the mistakes that don't work in a good way.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes, exactly. So the first thing starts from, uh, analysis, you know, in the last two years, uh, I was not able to reach each pharmacy. It was impossible to travel. Mm-hmm so also in remote, I can do this analysis because we do only this, like you say, so from a plan of, uh, a location or some picture, just we majorly understand if there are mistakes.

For example, one typical mistake is to put the prescription, um, count two steps in front, the entrance, you know, also the OT location is very small, but these happen all the time, just visit pharmacy, Brooklyn that have this problem. And then they ask me, well, the people Don. Rules around where they look, they don't look around the other area.

They don't see there is maybe a pre area for consultation. And so of course, because you have cold areas and hot areas, the hot areas are all. Around the prescription counter. Of course. Yeah, because when I come inside the pharmacy, this is what I have in mind. I usually take four seconds to reach the counter.

And this is one mistake that a lot of pharmacies have, uh, made. Uh, uh, you need to create a curiosity. You need to create a focal point that people will follow. You have not to create an obligatory pathway for the Department, but suggest some direction, attract them with some focal point in the way that you move them.

When, where do you want them to go? And this is why, because we want to show them. Most of the pharmacies. If you have a front end with some product, you want to sell some product you want to show. And so in this way, uh, you attract their side of impulse by not only they go inside for the prescription, but your attention is captured from something.

And they say, oh, well I also want this. And so they reach, uh, more and more now with the COVID is difficult because people with the mask look down. So, uh, we consider and some on the [00:20:00] project now are different. Uh, totally. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Are you saying there's just one cash or up front, or are you saying that the pharmacy is actually too close to the.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: In the US, the pharmacy is put completely on the back, uh, most are the pharmacy chain that visit the, have the independent, uh, no, no, not so much. It also depends on how much space they have. So if we talk about chains yes, because they have a huge frontend with all these huge high gates that create the corridor.

And then on the back, there is the pharmacy I was related to, uh, the independent pharmacy in this case. Uh, yes. Uh, most of the pharmacy I saw, they try to, to be closer to the fat, so they advance, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: but they've gone to the extreme too 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: close. Yes. And also, you know, what I know is, uh, sometimes, uh, Uh, they arrive with me, uh, with the other design.

No. So I look at what other designs of pharmacies or, or people that sell furniture in us design. And, uh, what I notice, uh, is that, um, they, uh, first of all, they want, uh, a lot of more space. That needed in the pharmacy area. Then the front end here is the country. As you pay a lot for location, you try to optimize at the maximum, the pharmacy area.

This doesn't mean, uh, that it will not, uh, uh, be functional in the country. Uh, we can create a space, very functional for the pharmacy area, but with less space than require 

Mike Koelzer, Host: in the us. You're saying that. The independence. They want a lot of room for the employees to move around behind the pharmacy. Yes. And you're saying that you can bring that down to leave more room out front and they don't have to worry about that.

You're not gonna give them enough space. There's ways to bring it down. And if the flow is right, you can save space in the pharmacy that they can use out front. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Absolutely. Because way, uh, sometimes is under-evaluating the power also economically in terms of profits. Mm-hmm the tag good front end can give to independent, uh, pharmacy 

Mike Koelzer, Host: As for independence, even though I know there's wonderful pharmacists at chain stores, I always tell people I'm like, there's wonderful pharmacists there, but there's a lot of pressure coming down from the corporation.

To make great employees, not always to give the best service. And then I always like to pick on the big chain stores. And I say, I don't say it, but I kind of let people know this in my face, like the big chain stores. And you've gotta walk through, you know, 40,000 square feet to get to the pharmacy.

And you got these huge gondolas and stuff like that, but have the chain stores done a good job, or if you were in charge of that, where are the chains going wrong in the us? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: I'm also talking with some huge pharmacy chain in us right now, because, uh, uh, right now also them, they know they needed to change something.

Totally. Uh, when I was in New York one month ago, I went to visit several chains in the New York area and, um, completely, uh, there are things to change. I always have. Like the relationship created by independence. That is not possible most of the time, uh, in the chain. So, uh, now they realize probably, uh, because the online is all over now, so the people can.

Choose if to take the car, go to a chain or just have it at the same price online. Mm-hmm so, uh, they are different from the independent where I go there because I know the pharmacist. I know they treat me. I know they treat me very well. I know that they have customer service. Fantastic. Mm-hmm unfortunately, uh, still very far from the chain.

So when you go there, you are most of the time [00:25:00] alone. Uh, so customer service is something, uh, that they really need, uh, to take care. I know it is a big point because customer service means people that advise you people that lose time. And in the chain, they are very, very, very busy. So, uh, this is one point, uh, the second point, uh, in the design, uh, I see everywhere, maybe just one chain, uh, maybe another is starting, uh, to change the, the card on the table, but still, uh, there is the product like protagonist, like core of the pharmacy.

And I don't think now it's the right market. It was before, but maybe not right now. Right now, the people want to feel protection is the word wellbeing is the word. Uh, so it's not the product anymore. That needs to be attractive for the Department, but is the service. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: The first point you were making was that the stores are big and if they give too much customer service, then they're losing help from the pharmacy.

What point were you making on that? To say that the chains didn't wanna lose that help from the pharmacy 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: When I go in, uh, I'm alone. So I don't find the people that, uh, help me all the time. Does 

Mike Koelzer, Host: their current system works well when the customers are alone or do you think. Their current system doesn't work well because it's like a maze or 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: something.

Uh, I think that now, if we talk about Millennian and, uh, ex generation, everything has changed. Yeah. If I see my daughters, they go online. They even type things, they just give orders to the phone. Sure. And, uh, this means that the generation of the market right now, uh, wants something different because they will go online.

They will not take the crowd, and will take the bus to go physically. So the store, uh, I made some articles on these. Uh, the pharmacy of the future will be a pharmacy, uh, that welcomes the online together. The in-store. So physical and remote will be together. And it's already like this in fashion. It's already like this in beauty, uh, shop you, you can see there are events in remote with, uh, trendy people, uh, blog inside, uh, all together, connect some in the store, some in remote.

This is what our kids, the new generation, the millennia are already living. So why not in the pharmacy? Why is the pharmacy always the last to arrive? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Uh, when people go in now, They don't want so much focus on product because where maybe a chain right now has, I'm gonna pick on the chains. Let's say they have real long gondolas.

They're all the same metal. They're all the same height. It's really focused on products. There's people, but they're way at the back. But if a millennial or X wants a product, they're just gonna go online. They don't need to see a big sale in the store. What you do is you rearrange them so that the focus is not so much on the product because they don't need that.

They can get that off their phone. When they do go into the pharmacy, they want maybe help. They also want comradery and maybe they want to see someone. Caring for them or kind of a caring community. And so that's your job then to say, every other industry has done this. Why does pharmacy always become this sterile Cabo?

That's bringing up the rear 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Now, uh, everybody arrives inside the store that they already know all the products and what they want is someone that knows more than you . So, uh, independent pharmacies are very good at this because they listen, they give you advice and they win the battle because [00:30:00] there is this listening.

Uh, and so, uh, you know, old people, they feel protected. They like to go to younger people. Anyway, if. You go to a person that is an expert , you listen to this person, but you can't have good customer service, a fantastic team in an old dark, nasty, dirty pharmacy that belongs to a market that doesn't exist anymore.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Fiona people look at your beautiful website and they say, wow, I would love to bring Fiona in and do something for me, but they're complaining because they say I can't even afford new carpeting, but I suppose people shouldn't give up though, just because it's old, it doesn't have to be dirty. Are you saying that pharmacies, some pharmacies are actually 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: dirty?

They don't clean. And for me, for me, this is terrible. No, this has to change for me. Pharmacy equal health, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: just like a re. Or really anybody people look at that poorly. If they have a dirty bathroom, a pharmacy that's health, you don't wanna see dirt and 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: dust. Yes. And you think that now with the C the people we go inside, a pharmacy that is dirty and transmit, uh, Something that is not completely 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You must be a woman though, because my wife can find dirt.

I mean , she used to come home and I would clean the house up and I thought it was perfect. You know, and she'd come home and say, oh, I, you know, no, 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Mike, I'm a messy woman. I'm messy. So now Laura is messy, cleaning is something different. So, uh, when I look at pharmacy ALA, this is 0.1, that is the pharmacy.

So if you don't want to do anything about your pharmacy, just step outside. Try to reset and go inside your pharmacy with a new eye, like you or me that I never been in your pharmacy and try to look on the right on the left. What is not going right? Because of one thing, but also to my client, I go back many, many times. Also this time in New York, I go back to my client in Brooklyn.

I go back to my client in HETA in, um, a story everywhere I try to, to meet, uh, people that, uh, you dunno, but, uh, I stay in touch all the time. Every month I talk with my clients as friends, companion. I want to know what's going on. And the one thing that is always wrong is that after a bit you are in the habit of seeing things.

Yeah. And so my, uh, advice. Take off. Because, uh, most of the time, the pharmacy, you continue to put temporary export, temporary export, temporary, that covers everything. So your client, your patent comes there and there is confusion. They don't know where to go. They don't know how to communicate. They don't know the product because there is.

Uh, many layers of expo. One on top of the other and the end is AZA 

Mike Koelzer, Host: expo. You mean, um, like fixtures that are out in the aisle and so on, like sales and things like that. Yes, 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: because sometimes the brand sends you temporary, pop up, pop ups, pop up a fake store. And one, two, it's fine. But then after years, this pops up, you never take off.

So first advice: go out to your pharmacy, open the door, go in and look with different eyes. And you will find mistakes by yourself. If you don't call me, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Fiona. Here's the thing is people don't even look into their store and I've got beef and that's a good word for it because if I go through a drive through of a fast food restaurant, Some of the outside of their drive through windows, they're all grimy and dirty.

And it's just like, that's like the last thing. And the first thing you see when there's food going through those windows, and there's a lot of stores where you go up and there's like weeds and cigarette butts and the floors, all dirty and stuff. [00:35:00] So you gotta start looking from the outside even before you go.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes, absolutely. All the outside design. How is your business car? How to present your pharmacy to the people, because you will have your followers that are the neighbors that know you, but all the others, they don't know you. So you need to capture the attention. Studying the exterior is very important. You know, what you write in your signage.

Mm-hmm, , uh, what can be, uh, attractive, uh, different from, uh, your competitors now to push, uh, the people that are outside of they driving to stop and decide to go in, uh, this is the, the first, um, things that you really need, uh, to understand. Uh, but, uh, we saw that, uh, usually it's the last, the signage is the last.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Someone listened to this, let's say they have between five to $10,000 and they've taken their store. They've cleaned it up as well as they can, but they've got some stuff, aging, the carpets, aging, the, the, you know, the wood floor is scratched. You know, the paint, maybe doesn't look as good as it should. And so on.

If they've got like five or $10,000, where did they spend that first? As far as I'm not talking marketing or product or, or wages, where would they spend between five to $10,000? If they've kind of given up, they hardly wanna spend anything, but now they've got five or $10,000, where would they spend that?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: I will spend, uh, in the light. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Oh, in the lighting. That's interesting 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: because, uh, light is a very. Maybe one of the most important factors in retail in general and pharmacy also, uh, most of the pharmacies have, uh, uh, are light that is completely flat. So two have just one temperature, light, one light flat means that, uh, every product you have, everything you have in the pharmacy looks the same.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Whoa, that's interesting because everybody as pharmacists, I don't know, we kind of think like, Black and white and orderly and so on. And I would think like different colored lights is almost something you wouldn't want to have, but that's really interesting. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: We also make lighting design and it is very important because, uh, uh, the right light for enhancing your product.

And also yourself is a mix. I don't think 

Mike Koelzer, Host: any light can save me. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: no, it's not 

Mike Koelzer, Host: true. Really. I'm tall, dark and handsome. When it's dark, I'm handsome. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: First of all, I will protect your view because a lot of pharmacists don't have lights on the counter. Right. So when they read the prescription, they don't see anything.

So it can also be something functional, very important that nobody thinks about. Uh, but. Of course, if I, if you have a light, very, very warm, you will look more yellow in the face mm-hmm . And if it's too cold, you will look like a zombie so the right mix of the different light overall, when people, if it's possible work to protect the natural light, I saw many projects where everybody covers everything.

Yeah, no, we, we want, if there is a garden, a view, a nice view to enjoy, but also for the pharmacist and the team yeah. That they work over there all day long is what I told you before wellbeing, physical and mental. Also for the people that work, not only the people, the ENT and the customer that come.

Mike Koelzer, Host: We're really blessed in our pharmacy because we're kind of on a peninsula, we've got one road going and then a side road, then a back road. And so I've got windows on three sides of my pharmacy that I'm looking out during the day, but I've spoken to some pharmacists. It's like when they're way back in the chain pharmacy, I'm gonna pick on chains again, when they're way back there.

They don't even know if it's lighter, dark, unless they stick their head out the drive through window. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Exactly this, uh, is changing. Absolutely. You know, uh, when I was in Dubai last week, uh, I had the opportunity to go to visit the expo, the universal [00:40:00] expo, 2022, and the team was sustainability. So all the, all the country, everybody told about green, everybody told how to improve the wellbeing in working space and you that you live in the pharmacy, but not in us, also in Europe, in Italy, uh, you don't have the enjoy the natural light.

When we build our red quarter. Here, we immerse ourselves in a beautiful park. Not only for our client. Yeah. We also enjoy my architecture. They eat outside. They enjoy the park, the green, and the change of season. This is, this is life. Yeah. Right? You can't reduce your life to stay behind the prescription counter in a dark space.

That's not good. It's a joy. It's a joy. Your profession is fantastic. Now I can see more and more because my fiance is a pharmacist so I'm not only designing pharmacies, but I know. All the relation, all the things happen behind the prescription counter. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Yeah. If he's cranky after work, you know, it's because he didn't get enough sunlight.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: yes. So I'm redesigning his pharmacy. , 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You know, back in the day, this was kind of before my time, although I did have one employee ask me this and I didn't even know what to say, but back in the day, people had smoke breaks. They would go outside and they'd smoke for whatever it took to smoke a cigarette.

Let's say, I don't know, a few minutes or 10 minutes or something. They would do that four or five times a day. Now it's too bad that it's gone because. If I worked for someone, I would go up to 'em and say, Hey, could I have a Snickers break? Can I go outside and eat my candy bar? And they would probably say no, but it's like the damn smokers got to do it all those years.

I think that was healthy for them not smoking, but I mean, going outside and getting some fresh air and 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: so on, but also enjoy from the window. There are days that I do too, I just get up and down from checking the project and going to my architect. But just to see some green, if you have not the possibility to have a view, you can reach and be included in the design of the pharmacy.

Some green, some elements natural now more than ever the let's say trendy, but I don't like this word, uh, because for me, every pharmacy is different. So there is not a trend. Yeah. But. As sustainable is a necessity that everybody has to work with for the future of our kids for the future of this planet.

Uh, we, uh, try to design and project pharmacy more and more that are green, not only with the material natural, because of course it's different to have all metal gondola than have some wood, some stone, some material that inspire you, the, the naturality, but also some green. We have a lamp that is green.

Very simple. No, but you can grow something inside and change. Uh, there are shapes that you can use, not only straight lines, some cube in this way, it looks like that you send a message to Y Yu, uh, your client that you embrace them. Not only something that you keep away. Uh, but this, I think, also depends on our question: how much passion do you put in your work?

Hmm, because if you work, uh, without a patient, you don't see these things, but I have a client that really loves what they do. They want hands, they want their team to stay good and produce more. They wanted the pat and come in and feel better. So I always say we design pharmacies where people feel good.

Hmm. This is what we want to do. And, uh, to do this, we always try to research. So, uh, to do better. So to answer your question, the first thing I will take care of is delight to do, uh, a good light is the starting point. Uh, introduce the NA the natural light, introduce some, some of. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is there any place in the pharmacy that you would like very cold blue light?

Like maybe if someone's got a freezer section, if they sell food or something, is there any place where you don't want yellow 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: light? When we design a pharmacy, it's always some mix. So we don't [00:45:00] do totally cold blue and we don't do totally yellow, so warm, but it's a mix between different colors that give, uh, the aspect and the atmosphere that you can see in our pharmacy.

I recommend it. Uh, three levels of lights that we use in our project, uh, on top of the natural, if possible. And, uh, one is the one in the ceiling, uh, fortunately lucky in Europe, uh, we, most of the pharmacies have a plus board ceiling, but in us you have the modular tiles ceiling. So it's more difficult, but you can always suspend some light differently to your ceiling if you don't want to replace or change.

Sure. So there is one light that arrives from the ceiling. Usually. Uh, if you have a wall expo is the one that projects and gives light of the product from the front. So give this light and it is pretty uniform, but depend on the project because, uh, the gondola is vertical. So there are some rules.

Then we have the light integrated in our fixture because all our fixtures are designed and produced by us. And so it's, uh, you know, a fixer that arrives from change and change. And our client told us this, work, this not so, and usually the, the fix to give an atmosphere light. Hmm, eat the product from the side or give a communication on top.

Then there is a third, uh, kind of light. Uh, that is the one that gives a focal point. So is the design light something you like now? For example, we just finished installing a pharmacy in Mamoon village north of New York at the boundaries of WECA and we put it over the waiting area where there is a pre-talk. It is a small pharmacy, 600 square feet.

So a normal pharmacy, uh, but three lights with the three squares, you know, something uh, that their attention gives light and makes something fun for the kids that arrive. So the mix of this tree creates the atmosphere, the uniqueness of the pharmacy, the front end. I'm 

Mike Koelzer, Host: boring. Cause when you said the lights, I was picturing everything on the same plane in the ceiling with just different color bulbs, which would look odd sometimes.

If you look up and see that. But what you're saying is a combination of what type of warmth of light, but also there's lights all over the place that we old people aren't even thinking of. They're basically from the floorboards up to the ceiling with different kinds of 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: lights. Yes, absolutely. Also, uh, one element Mike that you need to consider is, uh, the photophobic people, I'm a photophobic person.

So when I come inside a retail store, where there is a strong light against me, or, uh, a cord light or something that is broken many times, you see the light bulb, so you need to protect the pats. And a lot of people are photophobic 

Mike Koelzer, Host: today. You mean they might have seizures or something? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes, my grain head.

Uh, yes, absolutely. So it's not only that you do, uh, to enhance and create a beautiful atmosphere. It's also something that you do for the safeness and the health of your ENT. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I didn't realize how far I was behind because we spent that time talking about lights, but now. You've got other stuff. I mean, we touched on the wood and the stone, but coming out from that 5,000 to $10,000 budget, what's another area we're looking at.

What else is there in the pharmacy that I'm not thinking of with that many different possibilities? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Uh, can I tell you please, uh, trash, the tall go 

Mike Koelzer, Host: trash, the tall gondolas get rid of 'em 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: the metal Gond stop. Stop trash. The 

Mike Koelzer, Host: big high ones. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes. Go low. If it's possible change material, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: How low, what's the upper limit?

That those should 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: be one meter and 40. You need to, [00:50:00] to be sure that, uh, a normal, uh, woman can see true and can see any way all, uh, the location. For our consideration and our anthropomorphic study, uh, you know, the Goli changed dramatically in the last years now because people with the phone, they look down, they look up.

So also the posture, your now with the mask is the same. The people. A little bit, uh, you know, this mask protects the face. You don't see so much, so you don't do up. So before the, uh, the excellent position was at your eye level, now the best brand wants to export down because the people threw the mask, the, the cell phone, they look down.

Mike Koelzer, Host: So you're gonna walk around a store and you're gonna have like two feet high fixtures all in the store. We're gonna feel like giants walking through there. Just like stepping over the top of 'em. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: No, just go the line. Also, I tell you I'm against the metal because. Are not transparent. They don't let you see 

Mike Koelzer, Host: true.

Oh, you wanna see through the shelves 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: also? Yes. I want to see it true because this gives a sensation of lightness, uh, that, uh, you can, your eyes can also go through the product. It seems 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to me that if I was in a pharmacy where I was used to being able to see through and over, if I got into a pharmacy with higher metal gondolas, I would maybe not feel as safe.

Like maybe I couldn't see everything. Is that an issue too, where it's maybe a safety thing that you can see the whole store? Or is that not a concern? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yeah, many of, uh, my clients ask me maybe they are alone in the pharmacy or they are one, two people. They have not so many teams that can stay aware overall in the Middle East, also in the chain, there is always one pharmacy for maybe 3000 square footage.

And he needs to check all this surface. And in this way also is important to have a surface that you can check 

Mike Koelzer, Host: in the us. Would the big change ever come down or is that gonna be a hard sell? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Until now, no, but, uh, I know that there are plan to change also, this kind, uh, you know, they, they have so many products, so many skew to position, but also this, uh, is, uh, coming to change such a better, less skew and position, better that to have, you know, you see that also in us now, there are a lot of.

Express pharmacy. So there is no more. So big boxes, they are going small because they understand that, uh, it is better to have a few categories, but very well reasoned. And on the, on the wellness of the people, on the health of the people. So they are tailor the product, depend from the area where there are the people would 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That means smaller square feet or just, they can maybe bring down the gondolas, have those shorter and that kind of thing.

Are you saying that there's gonna be smaller chain stores? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: They are going smaller. They are, yes. Yes. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We sell medical equipment in our pharmacy and there was a company in Detroit about Kelly. This is like 15, 20 years ago and they were gonna be like the best buy of home medical equipment, you know, a real big store and.

They didn't make it. And one of the reasons I think they didn't make it is that first of all, you've got old people in the store by nature of the category, medical equipment. You have a lot of old people and they frankly don't wanna walk all the way across the parking lot and then all the way through this store.

So that's number one. Secondly, is when you're in there buying your adult diapers or something like that, you know, it's fun and best buy. When someone says, you know, back in the day, when you'd go to best buy they're like, oh, mm-hmm what did you get there? Oh, I got a new video game or I'm buying this album, you know, the BGS or something like that.

But. You don't wanna run into someone like that and say, oh, what size adult diapers do you have? You know, that kind of stuff. Yes, absolutely. You want more privacy in 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: something smaller? Yeah. These kinds of items are always protected, but I don't like when they are put in a remote place and live [00:55:00] like mm-hmm alone.

I also like, uh, the golden age I call the golden age, uh, category because, uh, uh, you really, um, can explore these items with a different view. You don't need so much space. If you want to add that category like this, because you need just a screen and you can show the product on screen. And when the people are interested, you just, uh, make the product come in.

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right. So I brought up adult diapers, for example. And you're saying that you don't maybe need the full display because people will be in their car or at home, they find out what you have, they might order, or at least just come in and that stuff can be in the back room or in the basement or something.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Absolutely. Yes. Uh, you need to, uh, take off the idea that your front end is the stock room. Many times I see the front end use it like the storage room, because maybe they are in the basement or in the ING. So you don't want to do the stairs, but it's not the same. The front end is a place that must be attractive with, uh, an atmosphere.

And when there are not so many products, but well, communicate. So communication is very important also for all the people. Um, so yes, adult diapers, you put one and then you have all the sites. So you put one and then you put a signage, a communication that says, Hey, ask me. And that will bring you all you want or in your online app.

There will be all the sites, everything. So the people order and pick up in the store or on the curb. That's interesting. We already did the pharmacy where there is a window for the eCommerce that is divide from the cash counter or the prescription counter. You 

Mike Koelzer, Host: promote that in the store by saying, this is for people that have ordered online or have seen it online.

And now they're coming in. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes, it's everywhere. Every, every sport shop, every, uh, fashion shop has this service. Why not a pharmacy also small in it's just a wind and a big stockage because of course it can be divide from the pharmacy if you don't have a space, but, uh, you will, uh, make the, the, the goods arrive the time that the client come to pick up.

On our 

Mike Koelzer, Host: website for my store, I recently put probably 20 to 30 items on our website. And. It's built. It says pick up in store and some people just like to see it before they come in, they know exactly what the price is gonna be. They know you have and so on, but we do get some sales and people buy 'em and we print off this and they come in, they pick it up.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: It's quick. Yeah. You need only to pay attention because going online for an independent means to have a completely different store as something that you do only promotion seasonally or with some event, some that you create a shop line. This means, uh, our organization is different. I tell you a secret, but also Rito.

I have created, uh, a new eCommerce with some of our fix and some, our accessories. But still not online soon, but, uh, we will start from Italy and, uh, because we like to do things the right way. Sure. Test them out first. So this is some recommendations also to the owners. Uh, let's do the things step by step.

Also when the client comes to me, I ask for their budget and we, anyway, when we, uh, show we present our project, we give a basic and a premium price. Uh, we don't want to push big steps if you are not ready. And so we always, uh, think too, to find the way that is used to our client, I think is the best. So, but you need to do something.

This pharmacy can't be like the pharmacy of 50 years ago because the market is different. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You talked about having the line for eCommerce, you know, in the store or the section for that? I think that fast food places need somebody standing [01:00:00] right there all the time for desserts, because let's say I go to a fast food place and at the end, I'm thinking, Hey, I would like a little sundae A caramel sundae or something, but you look at the line and you say, I'm not gonna stand in that again. So they need a separate line just for desserts that people can go up. They would sell a hell of a lot more 

desserts. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: We do the design. A lot of pharmacy have a counter that we call fast counter, a fast track where you go, if you have just two, three item, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: the way a grocery 

The store has ten items.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes. We introduce these to most pharmacies. Have this quick system. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Have you ever seen like HGTV in the US, you know, fixer uppers and things like that? Yes. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Sure. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I know the market's kind of small, but at least online, somehow in a podcasty sort of video way you need. Be in front of the camera doing this, talking about retail spots.

Is someone doing that already? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Uh, for the pharmacy? No. Uh, my brother, uh, the first book my brother wrote, uh, was, uh, uh, inspired by the, the, the TV series, uh, that if you remember was, uh, in the restaurant, the nightmare. Yeah. Right. The nightmare restaurant. So we did the same, like looking at the pharmacy before and after the project and also translated in English.

Fiona, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You need to get in front of the camera though, doing this. You've got the look for it. You've got a great personality. We already talked about your cool Italian accent. You need to get in front of the camera doing this on a retail level. And maybe you niche down to pharmacy because like my show is.

Successful, I think because it is niche enough, I'm not just talking about business in general, you know, because you're gonna go listen to some other better business person, but what I can combine is business and pharmacy. You've gotta get that show going and maybe niche down to pharmacy. But if not, Retail design, you know, you gotta find the area, but you gotta be doing that.

Yeah. why not? Why haven't you done that yet? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: It was too busy. That's a good thing too, Mike. Uh, I'm sure that for you, this is a passion and for me, uh, is maybe because it is a family things, but, uh, uh, you ever know, every time I travel all over the world and my daughter can say this, I go to visit the pharmacy, that there are local or see if I'm on holidays.

So they hate me so my daughter knows all the pharmacies that are in the place because, uh, I love it. So something like you say, it will be something very good to do, you know, to, uh, to go and, uh, and check and try to give advice. This is a. What I told you with my client, they became more friends. We talk.

So if they are a problem, if they also have small things we try to solve. So, uh, is more than just business. It is the same relationship that I think the pharmacy has for their clients, when they call them by their name, they know the name of the dog is the same for us. ALA many architect maybe are more distant or more famous

But, uh, I like to, uh, To have this empathy for everyone. So if there is someone that wants to contact me, I always answer everybody by email. Um, I don't feel the distance because the goal is the same. You know, the goal of the pharmacies is make, feel good, the party. And so they can come back.

And, uh, my goal is to make the, uh, pharmacists make more profits, but for a good, uh, goal for good cows. So it's a trade where everybody, all their hands and in this period, more than, uh, more than ever. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: How does someone listen to this? Let's say it's like, I don't have the time right now, or maybe the money right now to do something.

Can they? Come on your Facebook. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Absolutely something might happen all the time. [01:05:00] I have a client, uh, if I have a client, uh, that starts to follow us, uh, many, many years ago on Facebook. Uh, and then he decided to open a pharmacy. It was just, uh, working for a pharmacy chain and, uh, he decided to open and, and.

Immediately. You want to go in the market with something new, that break that is unique out of the box, this, but I have also clients that contact us, send us pitch. They want just advice, as I told you, we are open. So it's, uh, something that we do all the time. Uh, when I was in New York for the boutique design exhibition, I had a client that came just to meet me.

Some from California, they travel now, they are clients, we are showing projects, but, uh, they say, I, listen, you, I read your book, uh, and stuff. Now I want to go forward. So it's also a mental step. But as you, we talked before, starting small things, making a program, and the importance of having a vision. I always say that you have a pharmacy, you have to create a brand.

So in this, and it takes years to create a brand, but for your neighbor or client, you can do it. You can, uh, become the reference. Like, uh, I always say there is a health lighthouse in the area now. And I think pharmacists have demonstrated these, uh, in all over the world, they were in first line. And so this is their moment.

And so it can be a first step in a program. So you can do your program, but you have, you need to have a vision. What's a good 

Mike Koelzer, Host: way to make some connection. Taking up time from 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: anybody, uh, my company, uh, you can find everywhere, so you can go to Facebook website, uh, Instagram. So vena is everywhere. When you talk about pharmacy, most of the exhibitions were there, uh, before COVID I was traveling all the time.

uh, now a little bit less, but always traveling. Uh, if you want to go in contact directly with me, uh, the best channel is, uh, like you did through link Dean where I wrote most of my article, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: they can just reach out and say, hi. Just hi. I heard you on the show and I 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: just wanna say hi, exactly. Yes. And I personally write you back.

Uh, maybe if it's the night for me, because I'm, uh, in Italy, I will answer the day after, but uh, most of the time, uh, I'm a little bit a worker colleague or colleague, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So I've got this all wrong because I'm old school. And I said that you should be on TV, but you're already all over the internet doing everything right.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yeah. Yes. Uh, yes. Now the society gives you a big power to reach everybody in all Lord, all the world. So, uh, through our articles, the books, uh, uh, some appointments, I always, uh, invite everybody. If there is a fair to come to visit us, we try, uh, to come closer to everybody or we try, uh, if someone wants us, we try to organize trips that include when we are in the area.

Not only me, my team, we have 25 architects and engineers that are experts in pharmacy. My team is fantastic. Uh, how many employees do you have, uh, about, uh, 25 now? They are, they are growing. Uh, we are trying to do an internship. So if someone, uh, young architect is interested to enjoy, um, we are. we also diversify because you know, Michael, what happens sometimes pharmacies itself ask us to design their, their, uh, residents, their home.

So we also started to design, uh, home, uh, very nice. Also with our style, we also start to design dental clinics because other pharmacies ask us to integrate, to do small clinics. So, but it's always starting from our client is not something because we are devoted to the pharmacy world. [01:10:00] I dunno if you read my book, if not, I will send you one.

I would love that. Can you speak about the pharmacy that I wrote several years ago, but, uh, in the first chapter, there is the story, a little bit of my family. . Are you on TikTok yet? Uh, no. Sorry. It's the only one. My daughter tried to get me over there and also my brother. But you can find, uh, Sarto, vena. You can find, uh, not a personal me oh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So it's on there, but you're not because TikTok that's the most visited site right now.

It's above Google, even as the top 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: site. I know. I, I need, uh, to, to go also to step also in this one. but 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I can't do that because they don't allow old guys with gray hair on 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: there. Oh yeah. But you are blonde. You are now white 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think that I need better lighting so you can see that it's actually 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: white. And so, Mike, I dunno about us, but in Italy now all the women want white hair because it's fashionable.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I told my wife that I said, this is before COVID Fiona. This is before COVID all right. I've got five daughters. I've got a wife. Oh, wow. I've got a female dog. I've got like seven women in my house, not in my house anymore, but I'm related to seven women. I told my wife before COVID this is before COVID even, I said, I don't know why women still color their hair as much because with all the vegans and natural and green, and like, you talked about wood and stone and all that.

I said, Margaret, why do women still color their hair with everything going natural women should have white hair. And I said, I bet that within like five years, it's gonna be a trend where women have white hair. And she said, no, it's not gonna happen. Well, then COVID came along to help me. And I think I'm gonna win this bet.

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: yes. Now it's fashionable. A lot of younger people, uh, want, uh, white hair, kind of a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: platinum though. It's not natural white, 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: white, or silver, white to silver. This is water. They request yes. Cold, the cold, the 

Mike Koelzer, Host: colors. There's a few guys on these social media sites, you know, and every once in a while, it's like the silver Fox, you know, and the silver, this or that.

I could do it, but I figure all the silver names have been taken already. So I guess I can't anymore.

Fiona. It's nice to meet you. Thanks for, uh, joining me. Me too. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: That's a lot of fun. Oh, personally. So one day when I come in us, I hope so 

Mike Koelzer, Host: too in person. Absolutely. But we got 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: out for a dinner or something out for wine. okay. You know, Italians prefer to eat. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: your eaters instead of wine 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: drinkers, I like to eat.

And I also like to cook for my friends, for my fiance. I'm pretty good. I'm a friend now. yes, of course. You know, when you are far from your original country, uh, I learn to cook a lot Italian food because I, I want to eat, uh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Is there any Italian food in the US? Does it Taste like Italian food or is it all like garbage?

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: I'm sure there are. But usually my first rule, when I travel all over the world, is to eat Italian food, or if I cook it or if I'm at home, in my own country. So, you know, something happens sometimes, uh, one time I was in Turkey, Kai, by this client, they have a huge family and they. Uh, they make me stay in a totally fantastic place with a huge American kitchen.

You know, the one that has everything. So I was there for work and, uh, uh, one night I said, okay, you know what? I will cook Italian for all of your friends. So we went to the supermarket, we bought, I cooked caca and TSU and everything. Where do 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Us people go wrong? When they're trying to make Italian 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: food, they don't have in mind.

The critical moment. The critical moment is when you take off the pasta from the boiling water and the past is at Al dent. This is the critical moment because the pasta is not hard, but it is. Mash for 

Mike Koelzer, Host: our listeners here. I know I hit a good thing with Fiona cuz now she's doing her hands like the Italians.

Do you know? jazz? [01:15:00] And she livened up when it got to be about the pasta. So it's in the pasta. The sauce is okay, but the pasta is not done quite 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: right. Uh, yes, pasta is number one. Then you can also have pasta with just a Parmison and olive oil and for us it's perfect. We don't need anything else 

Mike Koelzer, Host: when we think.

Italian food. We think of the sauce a lot, but you're more focused on the 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: pasta. First of all, my family is originally from touring next to Milan. So we are north. No, the north. Yeah, next France. Uh, this, so my, my, my mom teaches me how to cook in her style more than Roman. Um, but, uh, what is the secret I think is this is my personal opinion.

I'm not a chef. I'm just a person that likes the good, but I went to a lot of restaurants with the Michelin style. Uh, it's my family, something we, and I think a lot of Italians are, um, is. The first thing to use is, uh, very fresh product. I know it's difficult, but for example, when I was living in South Carolina in Beaufort, mm-hmm I found some farm more than, uh, go to the supermarket all the time.

The weekend was stopping there by the squash, by the, the things that were seasonal. Yeah. So if you have a good, uh, uh, material. Uh, you can also not put so much spice to too much sauce that cover. If you have a fresh fish, uh, we like to, uh, taste, uh, the fish, not, uh, the Mayo and the, but I know is, is different, uh, from the American culture.

Uh, but I also like the burger, the fries, the sweet potatoes, everything, the okra, the fried okra. Also here, we have a McDonald's. We have all the chains and my daughter loves them. So. But we try to, uh, I, when I can go to the market, I buy fresh, fresh things. I know it's more difficult for me too. I love to grab a pizza and finish the lunch like this quickly.

But if you care about your helpness and uh, I like a sport, I like to be athletic. Uh, you need to take care also about your nutrition and the pharmacies start the first that teach us this. So 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Fiona, a question about pasta, though. Is that like a big scam where all the pasta is the same stuff, but they have all these different names for the different kinds of pasta.

Isn't it all 

the same? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: No, no, each pasta is different. For example, if you buy the pasta in Naples and surround the type of pasta they have, it's different, the water and the flower that they use is different and the taste is completely different. It's like eating a pizza and there is always me against my fiance, my fiance from down in Naples.

So the, the pizza is totally different from Italian pizza, Roman 

Mike Koelzer, Host: pizza, but Fiona. If you're in Rome. Okay. Yes. Let's say it's the Roman mix of flour and water and all those ingredients. Mm-hmm does it matter the different styles, like the long spaghetti and the twisted, this and the, all the different shapes of pasta that all taste the same though.

Doesn't it? If it's from the same area, I think it's a scam that they have all these different types of pasta. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: No, because for example, if I think, um, uh, certain, uh, uh, sauce or certain way to cook a pasta, I use, type specific of pasta because maybe the sauce go inside or, uh, enhance the, the flavor.

Mike Koelzer, Host: So it enhances how it's in your mouth 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: too. Yes, exactly. Hmm, but Mike asked me a question. Yes. Do you know how to eat spaghetti in the Italian way? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: My wife and I eat it. Like, have you ever seen, um, do you ever see. Uh, lady And the tramp on Disney, when they're eating spaghetti, do you ever see that? 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Yes, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: We eat every piece of spaghetti.

That way we put it in our mouth and then we kiss after every piece of spaghetti. Isn't that romantic 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: This is nice. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I don't know. You just take your fork and you cut it up and shove it in your 

mouth. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: No, no. [01:20:00] 

How do you normally do it? You learn how to roll oh, a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: fork in 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: the spoon. No, the spoon is forbidden.

No, no, no. Oh, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Just roll it on your plate. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: You roll, you create the perfect, uh, roll and then you eat. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That 

sounds like a scam too. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: or you dunno the spaghetti. You are short pasta and it's easier. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Well, Fiona, such a pleasure talking to you. Thanks for all you do. And we'll put a link to your website and people can go on and see all the beautiful stuff you do.

And I'm eager to have you visit the states so we can, uh, say hi in person someday. Yeah, 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: sure. Soon I will be back. Now. I just came back from Dubai. So I'm rearranging things, but we are presenting a lot of projects to us. So I want to come to visit when they are finished to check. Everything's fine. And, um, just an announcement if they don't like how we design the pharmacy, we can cook for that.

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's perfect. They can't go wrong. Just call us. it's guaranteed. It's guaranteed. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: No, I'm joking. Uh, uh, we are very serious now because this interview is like this, but, uh, we are very, very, very serious sometimes. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: So it's beautiful stuff. So keep doing what you're doing and bringing some beauty to pharmacy.

Thank you. All right, Fiona, we'll talk again. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. It was fun. Thanks. 

Fiona Sartoretto Verna, Arch.: Thanks, bye. Bye.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You've been listening to the business of pharmacy podcast with me, your host, Mike Keer. Please subscribe for all future episodes.