Addressing HR Challenges in Pharmacy | Britney Beck, Highwire HR Consulting

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:00:00] Brittany, for those that haven't come across you online, introduce yourself and tell our listeners what we're talking about today.

Britney Beck: My name is Brittany Beck and I am the owner of Hi-Wire HR Consulting. So I am a boutique consulting firm, and I dedicate my services to independent pharmacies across the us. Today we're going to talk a little bit about some of the challenges that pharmacy owners are facing with their employees, specifically around those difficult employees and the decisions that they have to make, you know, attendance issues. Personality issues can be a factor.

Or, am I able to separate this employee to terminate them?

what's gonna

happen, if I do, or maybe just the fear of not 

addressing issues because they're going to quit on you 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Brittany, you mentioned, attendance. I never think much of attendance because as much as I don't like having difficult conversations, that's not a terribly difficult one for me because it's quite black and white. You didn't show up. This is the second time you're a fine person, but.

People who aren't at the pharmacy can't help me you're fired,

but that's a problem. I take it.

Britney Beck: Yes, it.

is a problem. In one sense, we have a lot of pharmacies today that are nervous to let go of people because they find it hard to get new people.

So the recruitment issue is impacting their ability or their decision to manage people and how they normally would if they weren't.

Nervous about losing staff and not finding new ones. And so in some cases I think that employees are taking advantage of that. They know that you don't wanna let them go because you, the talent out there, seems to be scarce. And so they're trying to see what they can get away with, right?

And then in other cases it's that you just simply haven't laid down the rules around tenants or consistently managed it. And so, Without that consistency, people don't know what the rules are, so they're gonna do what they think they can do. So I think there's a combination there.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I had a tech years ago and we never seemed to have any people in our pharmacy calling 

I'm sick. You just didn't do it. Probably more people should have now that you think of all the, spread of stuff, but back in the day, nobody 

did. But then this 

one technician I had, she called in sick one 

time and it was just like, I'm not gonna show up.

I've got the sniffles kind 

of things. And That probably happened one or two more times and it just went like wildfire through the team. I think it was because, nobody wanted to be that person because it makes everybody else's 

job tougher. But then as soon as this one cog got out of the system, 

Everybody else is having a tough situation and they're like, well, screw it.

Next time 

I'm sick, I'm gonna make others have tough situations, or at least not care. And boy, was that like a 

wildfire through the store? 

Britney Beck: Oh yeah, for sure. I'm sure it was. And it puts employers in a really tough situation because, We have a duty and legally we're required to provide a healthy and a safe workplace. And so part of that is, when somebody comes in sick and they get everybody else sick, we're not really promoting a healthy workplace.

And so, it's tough because, there's a difference between I have the sniffles and seasonal allergies, and I have. Something that's, I'm gonna pass to all of my colleagues. And then with C O I D, which, I've really, come to hate that word,

but that it really changed a lot in

the employment

landscape from recruitment and retention and attendance.

Now people are very quick to call out when they're not feeling well. That just put a whole new way of doing things for employees.

And so it's hard because you don't want to, you don't want to reprimand someone for calling in because they didn't wanna get other people sick. and at the same

time, it's like, well, how do I know that you're really sick and you're not

just using that as an

excuse?

So, I think Attendance, has become more of an issue after, the pandemic than it was

before.

Mike Koelzer, Host: There was a lot of permissions granted to people with Covid, so it was, I'm 

gonna [00:05:00] change my hairdresser cause I didn't like her

anyways, but now I've been gone for

six months, so she's probably figured I did something else. It wasn't bashing her cutting skills, or I'm not gonna go to the same church anymore because of this reason or that reason.

And they won't really notice because, maybe they think I changed gears kind of thing. I think I'm noticing that too around holidays, and I did that on purpose at our store. I'm like, screw it.

I'm gonna take more days off. We went down Monday through Friday and we do a half day for

this now and 

all that kind of stuff. But I think there's more permission for that now. And I think it's just these companies said, look, we got by for two months without me doing this or that. So what's two days around the 4th of July?

Or something like that. But just like my technician who kind of got permission, I think it's the same thing with people calling in sick, it's like, look, I wasn't fired after three months of this, so what are they gonna do now?

Britney Beck: That time definitely put into perspective for employees, what they can do in the sense of, I can do this job from home, or I do like working from home or. You know what? I really missed out on a lot of family time. I wanna be in a job that gives that back to me. So

the time during that pandemic when we were shutting down and when employees were working from home,

 Or their schedules were completely changing because of it, or when they were not allowed to come into work, when they didn't feel well, things like that.

I mean, they, it really changed. How employees view their jobs and how they view they're taking in. They're taking back control of their own work-life balance. They've always expected that the employer

maintains that for them. That is a benefit that an employer can provide, is that work-life balance?

Well, where it's not existing employees are taking it for themselves. And, in some cases, and this is part of the recruitment issue is, and the retention issue

As well, is That they're more comfortable, to change jobs when

they don't like the atmosphere, when they don't see opportunities for them to grow and

develop.

And some of them have just changed careers and industries altogether because they've, seen the light of, I'm

gonna pursue my dreams and this is what I wanna do and I'm not doing what I wanna do right now.

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's looking at their own life and giving themselves permission to do those kinds of things with maybe not being too hard on themselves.

Britney Beck: Oh yeah, for sure.

Mike Koelzer, Host: If Covid is gonna

do this to our 

balance, what can I do for our balance?

Britney Beck: Now that we're post covid, they're now taking control of their work-life balance because during Covid they saw what was possible that they weren't getting So many companies, outside of pharmacy, but so many companies, their employees went remote to work remotely and they never did before.

Right? And so it was eye opening . Wow, this job can be done remotely. Why am I gonna go back into the office?

 I think that's the same in the cases of two. Well, we got away with three people. in the store during this time, so certainly you can do it again

if I'm not feeling well.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You had the bosses that

used the threats like, Hey guys, if everybody's not here by nine o'clock,

I don't care as the boss, I'm a generous boss,

but we don't want the customers waiting on the phone or someone standing in line outside in the 

morning waiting to get helped. So you all have to 

be here on time and people are saying,

Alright, we were closed for three months, so what's five minutes? I'm gonna be A 

little bit late, 

Britney Beck: Well, and to top that off is, well,

What happens when I'm not? Because, a lot of people make empty

threats And one thing that I try to tell my

clients a lot is, don't make threats. You'll regret or promises

you can't keep.

Because that's gonna come back to

bite you. So if you're not going to follow

up on, saying, Hey, if you're late again, this is going to happen.

If that's not going to

happen, don't say it.

Don't say it.

You're ruining your

credibility and it's just giving permission to everyone else

to do the same thing. I'm a big believer in

policies. That might be just, I have a very analytical mind. I love the law,

but I believe that policies bring structure to an organization and allow your leaders to know exactly what to do, when to do, it,

and to be consistent with everyone so that there can't be this, well, you're treating so and so. Better than you're treating me, or

you didn't do this to Alice when she called in three times last week, but now you're doing it to me when I did.

So I think first and foremost is do you even have a policy that guides attendance? And does that [00:10:00] policy stipulate what happens when you know, do you have any kind of Point system or an occurrence system, so that employees know this is exactly what's going to happen when I reach this point.

 There has to be some flexibility, right? We're dealing with humans and so we, although a lot of people like to

The rules and policies is black and white, there is a lot of gray.

There has to be because

these are people

and people have families and they have lives outside of

work and.

Unfortunately, a lot of

business owners, they want their employees to look at their business the same as they do, right? It's my baby, so I'm gonna be

here 24 7 and this is all I care about. Well, the hard

the truth is it's not theirs, Your business is not their baby. They have their own

babies and that's okay.

It has to be okay, there has to be flexibility, there has to be balance in understanding and being

empathetic about what truly is going on with their life. But

here we go back to that balance poll, right? I need to balance the needs of my business with the needs of my employees. And so how do I

do that? That's, again, that's where these policies in place and consistently

enforcing them. Is going to help the most in this area, especially if you've never done

it was before. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: There's this guy I like online. His name is

Scott Galloway of Profit pr. O P h e t. It's a consulting firm out in California. Actually my brother worked there years past, but he said, any company that calls their employees heroes

He said, they're not paying enough. they're not paying enough if they gotta like butter up their employees, like 

Our employees are heroes. It's like, all right, if it truly is a

hero, but I mean, they're not heroes, 

pay em more and you don't have to use that word 

so much.

That was his thought. 

What's interesting to me, Brittany,

bosses are not usually lax on the policy because they like the person more. It's usually because they don't like them as much. Like if 

A lady's dating, kind of like in the 

dating field, 

the person who she likes better, she's gonna be warmer to them, and parents might choose to, 

Do a little side favor for one of the 

kids who haven't been crying all afternoon . The problem in the pharmacy though, is A lot of times, like you said, why didn't you do this to Alice?

A lot of times it's cuz the boss hates talking to Alice and they're a pain in the ass and they're passive aggressive and all that kind of stuff. So it's a weird thing. So when someone comes to you and says, how come Alice can do this? You think it would be the opposite because that would be a favorite employee, the 

non Alice person, but Alice gets off just because nobody wants to deal with her.

Britney Beck: Yeah. No, you're right. And there's some leaders who don't like confrontation at all, and they don't like conflict. And , at some point it's like, well, you're managing people, so it's going to come. Like, you have to get over that

and, you have to be able to manage these instances.

And I think that comes back to finding the

root cause of, well, why are you scared of Atlas? What, what has happened? Or what are you scared is going to be the result of you

talking to

her? And then from there, you can work through, okay, well let's try this approach, right?

Because what you're doing is you're putting the company at high risk of discrimination charges because you're not treating employees equitably, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I had an employee that was in my extended family. and the people that knew of our situation at the pharmacy were like, Mike, thanks for working things out with this person, because, I can see how it wouldn't always be the easiest to manage this person.

Well, time goes on and. I'm like, this isn't gonna work. But you think about 

the ramifications of, dealing with somebody, it's a deeper 

level. And in this

case, for some reason, I had an 

inkling that if we let this person go, it was gonna be sort of 

 A domino effect through this

extended family of ours.

And sure

enough, this person we 

let go. , the same people 

 Thanking us for having her a part of this, knowing that she was probably

not quite up to par, just stopped talking to me and things like that. And it's 

like, that is okay. I wouldn't change it for the 

world, but. There is ramifications 

for firing people, and [00:15:00] that's part of being an owner and part of a boss, and knowing you have to go through those 

ramifications, but pretending they're not there is not good. 

It's just knowing they're 

gonna happen, but still going through with things.

Britney Beck: Yeah, I mean in some cases if your fear is that, well, Alice is going to quit if I confront her and I can't have that, well, okay. What's the difference between Alice quitting you knowing she's not going to be around so you can plan accordingly? Alice is not quitting and never coming into work.

And you don't have to, you don't have the ability to plan around that. The difference is there's still nobody

there. Like she's still not there, right? So that's no different. The difference is I now know what's happening. I can

plan accordingly and I can find someone else who does want to work and who does want to be

here.

So, again,

What's the fear here? What's holding you

back? Yeah. Termination they come

with risk and if you're not, if you're not doing them properly, they can come with great

risk, right? Because there's a lot of compliance

that goes alongside that, which again, is why having your processes in place and following them, they're going to help you.

Not only be able to execute what you need to do in those employment decisions, but help back you up for doing them.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think sometimes in firing, not only do these owners say that they don't want the chance of someone quitting because they have to replace that, I think sometimes they're afraid of a mutiny. It's like, Julie got fired and Susie and Janice and Bob are all there at night and they've all been talking and all of a sudden you have, four people gone instead of one.

I think the balance of that though is that most times when I've gotten rid of somebody, I've been thanked by the employees who you think were on that Mutinous team. A lot of 

times I've just been thanked by them, 

Cuz they're doing their best to be 

part of the team and they're not just gonna put a big sign of what this 

person's doing, but they're thankful when that person's gone. 

Britney Beck: I hear that often is, with being afraid that the person's going to quit, it is very rare that somebody just quits on the spot. You're talking about their livelihood, you're talking about income. Somebody is not going to just throw that away right then and there.

So if somebody does quit after they've been reprimanded, they are already going to quit. This was just their excuse to do it sooner, and they already have something lined up,

 So your other employees, they're not gonna just up and quit because they see this happen. It, in fact, if they were thinking of quitting, it was probably because of Alice's behavior 

and they just had enough of it. And so, because you've taken care of that now, They're like, oh, okay, good. I don't need to move on. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: and I've always said 

that, I'll know 

somebody in, one of the couples is Just an animal with people, just a terrible person 

with others, and you say, well, 

there must be something that works for them. Quite often not though, if you follow up with that relationship, quite often down the road, 

They're divorced 

because if you're that kind of person, 

you can't segment in enough. We actually had 

a, delivery driver and I could not get this person to shut her mouth. I mean, you think I talk a lot. I mean, she would not shut her mouth and most of it 

was complaints And not complaints about us, just what she has to do the afternoon, and she was just a real go-getter

Britney Beck: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer, Host: when we fired her, we thought that some of the delivery customers.

Might be a little upset 

because 

they would talk to her and so on. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, it's a pain in the ass 

for me to talk to her. Not because I'm afraid. I just didn't feel like doing it. She just wouldn't shut up. And I actually got two thank you notes from customers that I thought were dependent on her.

One of them said, now I can come out from hiding and one of 'em was like, something else kind of, badmouth and I wasn't trying to have 'em badmouthed, but they came out and offered it. 

You don't change if you're that kind of a person, if you're passive aggressive or this or that with your staff, it's gonna go to the customer.

It's cancer through it all.

Britney Beck: Oh, for sure. Your employees are a reflection of you, of the company. They're the ones who are really out there more than the owner is in a lot of cases. and so if you're allowing these issues to go on, I mean, attendance aside, any other kind of issues, With employees, it's going to be reflected.

 You're not the only one experiencing those issues. They're happening elsewhere in their life.

And so if that doesn't motivate you to [00:20:00] make sure that you're managing your employees is that hey, they're reflecting on your business.

You can have whatever kind of branding awareness out there you want. But at the end of the day, it's how your employees are treating your customers and how they're interacting with each other and what's being said in the community. That's really what your brand is. So that should motivate you to want to manage these rule breakers or these difficult employees and either get 'em on the right track or get 'em out of your pharmacy.

Mike Koelzer, Host: you talked about being, you didn't use this word but precise in, here's what policies were broken, this and that kind of thing.

Britney Beck: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I had, this guy worked for me a long time ago, and I would say some witty remark, at least by my definition, it was witty.

It deserved a chuckle, especially if I was paying these people that deserved a little chuckle. And this guy would always say a further witty comment that I didn't think was very witty. But he would say a further witty comment, and then he would like, he'd like wipe his eye like he was crying at himself and he said, oh, I kill myself. 

All this kind of stuff. I'm like, no, not really. I gave you a setup. If anything, I hated that, but that's not something you can put into a procedure. Sometimes there's just people that you just sour on their personality.

Britney Beck: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You gotta deal with those people too.

Britney Beck: Yeah, you do. And you wanna, you wanna be careful too, to kind of separate out what job related, right? What's messing up our environment professionally and what is just someone's personality that isn't negatively impacting anything. So that's difficult. Again, like I said, We hire people and people are different.

Everyone is different. We have our quirks and we have our different backgrounds and experiences, but that's what makes it great to have a team because you can draw off of everyone's quirks and experiences and go a lot further than you can on your own. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: That's interesting. I know if he was in my position, he was saying, I had this pause. You always thought he was so damn funny and this and that. It's quirks 

Britney Beck: He was probably trying to relate to you.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I don't think he thought that, because I would say something like, boy, I think the Tigers are gonna win the pennant this year, or something like that.

And you'd say, eh, yes and no. And I thought, oh, okay. It's not a given fact that tigers are gonna win. don't follow baseball, but it's just something to say when you're in the business. So then I thought, that's interesting. Yes or no. So then I would say something, a little bit more definitive, like, Boy, it's a warm one out today.

He'd be like 85, yes and no. I'm like, wait a minute, yes and 

Britney Beck: of perspective.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Then I would test him, I'm like, boy, that sky is way up there and the earth is 

below 

our feet.

Yes and no.

Britney Beck: Oh, he was still messing with you.

Mike Koelzer, Host: he wasn't messing with me. I eventually got rid of him. Here's what the listeners will say, Mike. You need to focus more on the goal. You need to focus more on the march you're making towards this kind of thing. I understand that you look at things that bug you, maybe when you don't have a clear direction and all that, but it still bugs the hell outta me.

Britney Beck: Yeah, I mean, they're people, they definitely rub you the wrong way. But, again, at the end of the day when you're the business owner or you're the leader, I. Because of the risks that you have on the side of compliance, you have to be able to put those aside and know, what is work related, what's job related and what isn't.

Mike Koelzer, Host: What do you mean compliance there? Brittany? You have to watch yourself for

Britney Beck: Well, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: to the laws.

Britney Beck: yeah, for employment laws, labor laws, we all have them. And even if you have one employee, there's. Like 20 federal labor laws that apply to you. And I guarantee you that the average business owner doesn't know one of the labor laws that apply to them. And that's why people like me exist, to help right.

To know those laws and to help you, abide by them. But, you've got your typical, protected classes, discrimination, harassment, every state except for Montana is at will. But. A lot of times we use that at will incorrectly because, as Americans we still have a constitutional right to earn a living.

And so we are subject to due process. And what that means is that although yes, you can terminate someone for [00:25:00] any reason or no reason, it's as long as that reason is not illegal in nature. Well, we have the duty to give employees due process, which means that they have to be provided the opportunity to understand where they're going wrong, how they need to make it right within a reasonable time, and for them to know the consequences if they don't make it right.

So it's about communicating effectively with them so that they know these are the expectations. This is what's gonna happen if you don't meet them.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Brittany, I didn't know that.

Britney Beck: Yeah, so lots of people don't know 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I did not know that. You are telling me because I had this gal years ago and I, she was blatantly doing things and I wanted to fire her and she knew damn well why she was getting fired. She said, what did I do wrong? I said, I'm not gonna talk about it.

I said, I don't have to. I'm an at-will employer and I'm not going to stoop down and repeat things that, you know what you did, that you blatantly did. I said, I'm not gonna tell you cuz in Michigan, you're an at-will employee, so goodbye.

I don't do that all the time. But with her I did. You are saying that was illegal.

Britney Beck: I'm saying that is how wrongful termination suits are won.

Is that Yeah, not so much that it's illegal, it's just that there are such things as wrongful termination lawsuits, even 

in Will states. 

And that's how they can be won by the employees who are terminated because they were not given due process.

And so, as Will states, if you have a reason, then you better be able to back it up. And show that you gave them the opportunity to improve. Otherwise there needs to be no reason.

 At the end of the day, everyone has a reason for doing it and judges know that, and juries know that there is going to be a reason,

 When I advise my clients, it's not enough to use the Atwell doctrine as your reason. For letting someone go. If you wanna reduce your risk, if you want to be able to properly defend a wrongful termination claim, then let's do it the right way. Le, let me help you do this the right way.

Mike Koelzer, Host: because it could be that you don't tell the person it goes to court and you tell court, listen, she was stealing. I didn't want to bring it up to her. I didn't know for sure. Pretty sure she was. So I let her go and maybe if you have a reason there, maybe they let that stuff go. But like in general, don't get to the point where you're even there having to explain that to a judge.

Britney Beck: Yeah, definitely for sure. There are definitely severe things like that, like theft, especially in a pharmacy. Theft is gonna be one of those things that you do once and you're gone. We're not gonna give you the opportunity to improve your behavior because we consider theft as severe, right? So there are definitely allowances for severe behavior.

It's more along the lines of performance. Where this doctrine is going to come into play a lot more is someone's just not performing well. What did you do to help them improve? And did they know that they weren't performing well and did they know what was going to happen if they didn't improve?

I tell you what, the biggest thing that I see lacking with leaders, even in the pharmacy setting everywhere, is a lack of clarity and feedback to their employees. There's a lack of clarity around what their role and responsibility actually is, about what expectations that they have. And even your best employees will sometimes not meet your expectations because they don't know what they are.

So communication is huge, right? And a lot of performance issues are going to boil down to a lack of communication. They didn't know that's what you expected because it wasn't communicated to them. And that, kind of brings me around to the retention issue with new hires. As I see that is, there's some high turnover among new hires, and a lot of it has to do with, either the company letting them go because they're not performing well within their probationary period, or.

That employee ends up quitting before their probationary period is over. And a lot of that boils down to their training. They weren't properly onboarded in the sense of, I just told Susie over here to train Fred the new hire, and Susie has no idea how to train. She was never trained to be a trainer, and so poor Fred isn't getting trained properly.

No wonder he is not performing well. And so Fred gets let go because he didn't meet your expectations and you're doing it all over again because Susie doesn't know how to train. It's not Susie's fault, it's your fault, as the leader, you know you have [00:30:00] to invest in your employees. If you expect them to do something,

you need to invest in them to be able to do it.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You brought up something interesting during the probationary period. Does that 

give you, cause I got this gal, I'm piring tomorrow. I think this young woman. What am I even supposed to call her? Brittany? Now you're kidding me. All flustered. I called her a gal and I called her a young woman. I probably just should have said, I'm hiring a tech, right?

Britney Beck: Yeah, we're in a difficult time. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: What can I properly call her if I'm gonna refer to her, sex? What can I call her?

Britney Beck: At first it's ask her what she wants to be called and then 

You can call her that. Otherwise, I would just refer to her as my employee. I'm hiring a new technician.

Mike Koelzer, Host: ah, 

Britney Beck: Yeah. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: color's gone. All the

Britney Beck: I know, I 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Brittany. 

Britney Beck: I'm sorry. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I like probation. Tell me about that.

Britney Beck: Yeah, so a probationary period, some people call it an introductory period, but it isn't necess, it doesn't take away the at-will nature of the job or anything like that. But what it does is it's just a distinct period of time where the employee. Is they know that, for whether it's 30, 60, 90 days, 180 days, whatever that period might be, it's like you're under a microscope,

 So if you call out of work in this period of time, we're probably gonna let you go. If you aren't performing well, then you're probably gonna let you go. So it's really just a. Time period where the new hire knows, like I need to be on my best behavior. And what's really good about them is if you see red flags during a probationary period, they're gonna be a lot worse after.

Because people tend to be on their best behavior when they know, like essentially it's saying you're hired, but you're not staying unless you pass this period. So, in a new hire's mind, who really wants to work there? I'm gonna be on my best behavior and bring my A game, right?

So if somebody isn't, that's a telltale sign that they're gonna be a lot worse 

when they pass probation, right? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: like, don't expect to change your husband. 

You can train a boyfriend and maybe a fiance, but don't train your husband.

Britney Beck: Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's not gonna happen. 

Britney Beck: It's not gonna happen. 

So,

Mike Koelzer, Host: Alright, Bri, let me think about this. So, in theory, something like that could still, I'm talking in theory, something like that could still go to court because you still can't fire 'em for reasons and so on.

Britney Beck: right? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: But I like that probation because, If you do have to fire them in 15 days, at least they have kind of a hint where if you don't have that, this person's gonna call her grandma up and tell her how happy is to be working at the store where her grandma worked, 50 years ago and stuff like that.

I think it lowers the expectation. 

Britney Beck: I'm not suggesting that if they're not performing well in 30 days, you, you can then, because you need to take a look at again, well, what's going on?

Maybe we have an issue and you always want to give yourself the room to be able to extend a probationary period too, right? So like, Let's say our probationary period is 90 days. And I have this employee and they do really well, but there's just one area that I'm not sure about, and the end of their probation is coming, so you know what?

I'm gonna extend it another 30, 60 days just to see. But you need to be clear with them about that area. Hey, I really like having you here. There's this area I'm not certain about. Let's. Let's talk through that and work through that, and I'll give you another 60 days on your probation. If it's not improved, then you're not gonna pass probation and I'm gonna have to let you go.

It's also a really good reason to give for termination is did not successfully complete probation 

as the reason, 

 For those new hires. But, I think it's really more psychological.

Mike Koelzer, Host: It's not like everything was great and then I got fired. It's like, well, no, you were in the probation period. How do you know? It was great. We were just still looking at you.

Britney Beck: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I know an employee can quit any time. Is it wise to tell the employee that we're both in probationary period?

You're looking at us and we're looking at you with a closer eye? Or is that just, lightening the fire? I mean, people know they can quit whenever they want to.

Britney Beck: I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying that. It might make them feel a little better, but it's probably not something common that employers say.

Mike Koelzer, Host: they can quit whenever. 

Britney Beck: they can quit whenever. Yeah. It's a common saying during an interview. It's, well, we're interviewing you and you're also deciding whether you like us.

Mike Koelzer, Host: [00:35:00] Here's the problem. I think that bosses have, Brittany is. It's an imbalance and I'm not talking legally, I'm just talking, it seems an imbalance of fairness because employees can come in and they can say, I'm putting in my two week notice.

And because I don't want to give them any satisfaction like I need them or anything. So I just say, well, congratulations. I'm glad you found something that meets your needs more and so on.

And, alright, we'll go two weeks, blah, blah, blah. Now an employee can do that with even an inkling that they wanna change where we are bosses. Maybe it's because of conflict, maybe it's because of not wanting to have to hire somebody else, but we typically wait till the employees, like 90% bad, there's 10% good, but we're gonna fire 'em cuz they're finally 90% bad.

But really we have the right, in fairness, I should be able to say like, I'm in the store and I'm thinking, good, but

 she's like 49% good, but 51% I don't really like, and it doesn't seem right, but I'm gonna call her and say, Brittany, hey, how's it going? Good. You know what, Brittany?

I'm just in a mood. I'm at 51% and you're fired. the employee feels like they can do that, but from a boss, it seems like you're the devil if you just throw out a statement like that.

Britney Beck: Yeah.

And I think that more comes from, because an employee does it, they're the one who is making that life altering decision. Again, this coming 

back 

to our jobs are our livelihood. This is what pays our bills 

and helps us take care of our families, right? And so 

when we make that decision, oh, most of the time we already have something else lined up.

And so we're not cutting into that. Whereas when the employer does it, the employer is taking control of this person's livelihood at that point. So that's the difference in, why do employers need to take their employees through due process or why are there protections for employees?

Because you're ultimately affecting their life. And they have no control over it at that point, So the rules are there to bring, fairness to, people who, we don't work because we like it, U unfortunately,

people aren't in companies 

because, They just decided, I really wanna work today.

It's because they need to. It's a need, a basic need of theirs to earn a living. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: But Brittany, if I've got my bases covered, and if I tell them it's a 51% desire on my part versus, you 

Now, 49% yours, it's legal.

Britney Beck: Yeah. As long as the 51% doesn't have to do with a protected 

characteristic. Like it's not a legal reason, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm not 

 stupid. 

Britney Beck: Well, I don't wanna say yes for sure. To your question without backing. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, so Brittany, I know we're not supposed to base things on personality. In other words, if you don't like somebody, instead of thinking you don't like them, you say, here's why 

I don't like them, because they always let this go or they spend too much time here. Different things like that.

With that said, if you were an employer of a pharmacy, what kind of personality would really get under your skin But it might be hard to put that into a, defensible position of why it bothers you or firing them or so on, what personality would get under your skin that would be hard to deal with and you kind of have to deal with it.

Cause they're not really breaking anything. 

Britney Beck: goodness.

hard question, Mike. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: you've seen hundreds of people that have been fired and there's gotta be a personality that 

Britney Beck: a 

Mike Koelzer, Host: most people would bother you. 

Britney Beck: I would say the personality that. The hardest part is someone who is always playing the victim, right? Everything is 

always somebody else's fault, 

or 

Somebody says something and all of a sudden this. is a hostile environment, or I'm being harassed. I think that those are the. personalities of their hardest to deal 

with and they just get under your

skin. Right? for heaven's

again. Right. And 

those are probably the ones that. most people tend to avoid, confronting 

when there's an 

issue 

because they know, they're gonna be 

annoyed, 

at this person [00:40:00] cuz they're gonna play the victim. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, Brittany, I'm

Britney Beck: okay.

sake 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I'm not supposed to do that. You don't wanna be the one-up upper, but I'm gonna one-up. You.

Britney Beck: see 

Mike Koelzer, Host: You be the judge.

 We had this employee that any time she was in the back room and had to do something with the order, I think she hated the orders, like checking in stuff every time she'd go back there, she'd make this like grunting, like sumo wrestler, sigh when she had to pick one of These crates up. These things were like three pounds and she'd act like she's doing a deadlift, passive aggressive. I'd bring her to the office and I'm like, Hey, what's the reason that you'd be breathing that hard when you're picking up something that's three pounds and know you don't like it. I can just see it for you. And she would say, oh, no, nothing, nothing wrong. I like all this stuff. If I did that, it wasn't intentional.

 It was certainly intentional. But that's a hard one because you can't even talk to the person about it, because then they're passive aggressive and it just goes on. Did I win? 

Britney Beck: you 

may have one. I'll give you that, That's a hard one to deal with cuz. I mean, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Hey 

Britney Beck: do? stop grunting. Like that's probably not gonna happen.

Mike Koelzer, Host: They do just enough to be below the radar, because then it makes you feel a little 

Britney Beck: Mike 

Mike Koelzer, Host: foolish by saying that, Are you're grunting too 

loud.

 I'll be acting for her in the office.

 Now. I know if I bend down, here's how loud a grunt should be. And this is coming from a guy in his mid fifties. 

it's a hard one to manage on because it's easy to do a passive aggressiveness 

Britney Beck: Yeah, for sure. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: don't know. 

Britney Beck: one that, you just of 

brush off your

shoulder and move on. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I've gotta not have any employees, anymore. 

Britney Beck: No employees. 

How are

Are you gonna run your business? 

Mike Koelzer, Host: I don't know. I would do something that just didn't have employees, in years past you had what they called secretaries and they would do all this and that, those aren't needed anymore.

I would do a one person show, and I know people are saying, yeah, but Mike, then you can't scale and it's not really a business because you don't have employees that are, making you money and all that kind of stuff. I'd like to, so I don't have any employees. 

Britney Beck: I totally get it. I mean, as I said, earlier, you have one employee and. you have to, follow every federal and state law that applies to you and there's both federal and state 

laws, right? Just depending 

on where you live. So it's hard 

having employees, puts an extra layer of, 

 challenge to your business. 

Mike Koelzer, Host: The whole employee thing of an employee, has some pain in the ass problem. You can hear it in my voice. I shouldn't be talking like that. But that's the truth, And, just the, whole, dealing with the personalities and stuff like that. I imagine, maybe not to my degree, but I imagine people, that's why they're calling on you too.

 That maybe is just the toughest for 

whatever reason, it's the toughest part of their job, and they need a shoulder to cry on 

if not anything else. 

Britney Beck: Oh yeah. Yeah. Certainly. And I'm definitely, there for my clients when it's, you know what, I 

just need to 

vent to you, because 

I am so frustrated by this one employee and, 

That's what they want. They want my ear for that and that's totally fine. I'm a safe place to do that, 

right? you can tell me exactly how you feel.

I'm not gonna report you. 

I'm gonna help you 

through it. I think 

that people and managing employees 

is definitely the most challenging for business

owners, pharmacy owners as well. We think about our pharmacy owners who. Most of them, not all of them, but most of them are pharmacists.

Were pharmacists. They didn't get into this industry for people in. the sense of managing people to be a leader. They did it for their patients for pharmaceuticals. And so they've never been taught or trained how to lead people. and so a lot of our pharmacy owners, They just lack the training and they lack the development themselves and how to, 

be a leader of people. In addition to all of the other aspects of business. The people's side isn't the only one that owners struggle with. I mean, the financial side too. I could tell you how many of them 

probably don't even look at their financial statements. So it's just there's different aspects of the business.

But that's why people like me and financial consultants and others, that's 

why we exist because this is what 

we do. We are trained and 

educated and experienced in it. So we're someone who can fill that void for you. 

You take a pharmacy that has five six employees, 

you don't have the need to hire a chief HR officer.

You don't need to, hire an HR manager, but you do need to have [00:45:00] someone that you can 

count on who can write your 

policies and make sure that you're doing things 

right and, take You through situations that you're not sure how 

to get 

through. So you still need someone. 

Who has that expertise 

that you can tap into when you need it. 

Now, the bigger you get, the 

more that you need someone on 

staff to, to help you or someone you know There 

more often.

Mike Koelzer, Host: I think you being there for them is sort of that excuse in their mind in a good way that what Britney said, this was a good idea to do this. And I'm gonna have that going through my head as I take this may be a difficult step without. You behind there, they're looking into their soul to see if it was a good reason or not.

And this person starts crying in front of you after you fired me and you question yourself and things like that. But it's nice to know that, Britney's in the back of the head with that confidence that you gave them to say this is the right choice.

Britney Beck: definitely. I have, a client 

who, it was really hard for

them 

to manage, people, and I've been working with them for 

more than a year now, and they're doing better and better. She is very vocal about you know, I wouldn't have been able to do it without you, 

Mike Koelzer, Host: Brittany, so

a pharmacist just got done listening to this, and lo and behold, you are standing at their back door as they open the door

Britney Beck: Yeah.

Mike Koelzer, Host: You're gonna sneak in with them five minutes before the store opens. What are you gonna do in those five minutes to give wisdom to that owner? 

Britney Beck: That's a tricky, good question, Mike, because I like to give wisdom and advice based on what I know your challenges are, what you're facing. However, I would say that the limited amount of time is to remind them that these are human beings, right? And they're not robots. It's not your Parata machine or your script pro machine.

They are people and people have basic needs. Of, security and safety. But beyond that, they have needs, to work in an environment that is respectful of them, that is, empathetic with what they might be going through in their life. To remind them that this is their livelihood, Right. 

And so, we need to be. Mindful that it is our duty to not just the owner, but any leader's duty to enable the employee to perform well and to communicate with them when they're not. And so if we have an employee who has to be let go because they're not performing well, what did we do to help them?

What was done on our end because we should be doing everything in our power 

to make them 

succeed, 

set them up to succeed. And a lot of times we end up setting them up to fail. 

Not on purpose, 

but it happens just because we don't take the time to truly plan 

and to truly communicate,

Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript is generated using speech-to-text technology and may contain errors or inaccuracies.

Mike Koelzer, Host: Brittany, thanks for joining us. that is down in the weeds, and we didn't let you get off too far talking about all these cloud ideals.

We got down to, well, pretty much it's my deficiencies in liking people. So thanks for taking that down that road. But it just goes to show that it can get kind of messy and I think that's the reason why people should consider reaching out to someone like you to, share the burden, two people are working on an issue, rather than just 

spinning in your own mind. 

Britney Beck: Yeah, 

absolutely. you might be the owner, but you don't have to be the expert in everything. So bring on the experts in other areas and let us help you.

Mike Koelzer, Host: All right, Brittany, thanks, keep doing what you're doing and we'll keep in touch.

Britney Beck: Thank you. I will.